evildave
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"Allah is great!"
I seem to recall video of people dancing in the streets, too.
I seem to recall video of people dancing in the streets, too.
Explain miracles
- Thread starter angelinthemorning
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TexasBEAST
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I kinda like the definition given above of 'anything that appears to exceed the laws of nature". If it is perceived to exceed the expectations of the present, there is generally a rush to slap the label of "miracle" on it. (Even if your perceptions are absurdly misinformed or your expectations childishly low.) An airplane is a "miracle" to jungle natives. Not to me. A matter or relativity, at least in how you apply the term. In form, if not in fact.
Interesting side note, in the New Testament, Iesous ("Jesus") told his mathetoi ("disciples") not to believe him because of the miracles he performed, because even the pagans could perform miracles and signs. He chided Tomas ("Thomas") because he demanded proof of the miracle of the resurrection, and said it would've been better if he had simply taken his word for it. That's "faith". Miracles are a sort of sign of some kind of power. But to expect a sign, a sort of proof, well, that's approaching science. (Maybe just "pseudo-science", but it's close.) Iesous couldn't have that. In terms of religion, miraculous indicators are good--blind faith is even better.
Interesting side note, in the New Testament, Iesous ("Jesus") told his mathetoi ("disciples") not to believe him because of the miracles he performed, because even the pagans could perform miracles and signs. He chided Tomas ("Thomas") because he demanded proof of the miracle of the resurrection, and said it would've been better if he had simply taken his word for it. That's "faith". Miracles are a sort of sign of some kind of power. But to expect a sign, a sort of proof, well, that's approaching science. (Maybe just "pseudo-science", but it's close.) Iesous couldn't have that. In terms of religion, miraculous indicators are good--blind faith is even better.
specious_reasons
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One book suggested to me was C.S. Lewis' Miracles, which is a philosophic analysis of miracles.
Evidently, one of the things he attempts to show is that miracles have been and are occurring. Has anyone read this? Opinions? It's on my "to read" list.
I am of the opinion that God has been pretty lacking in the miracle department in recent history. I've heard lots of excuses, but I haven't heard of any recent miracle that clearly shows itself as a supernatural event.
Evidently, one of the things he attempts to show is that miracles have been and are occurring. Has anyone read this? Opinions? It's on my "to read" list.
I am of the opinion that God has been pretty lacking in the miracle department in recent history. I've heard lots of excuses, but I haven't heard of any recent miracle that clearly shows itself as a supernatural event.
angelinthemorning said:I believe in God. Would like to know how skeptics define a miracle.
First you would have to show the skeptic a miracle, then await definition. To elaborate, if something is inexplicable, it's not a miracle, because "it's a miracle" would explain it. For example, Jesus H. Christ soaring through the air without an apparent mundane cause (such as a hang glider or rocket pack) would qualify as "miracle" if it's really Jesus. Otherwise it's just a paranormal phenominon, or simply a guy named "Jesus" on a hang glider soaring through the air.
How about an Entire Universe magically appearing out of no where? Would that count as a miracle?
How about a person who claimed that they possessed magical powers that allowed them to Disobey the very laws of Physics themselves? Would such an ability count as a miracle?
What would be considered a "miracle" by an A-theistic religious fanatic such as yourself c4ts?
synaesthesia
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Franko said:
That would count as a logical contradiction, since any 'no where' from which something can come would be included in the universe.
Pouli
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I think this story gives my thoughts on “miracles”:
Two countries are at war for some time. Much death and destruction has happened on both sides for years. Lets name them A and B country. One clear morning two extraordinary but confirmed things happen that could be considered miracles.
1. A picture of a religious figure of a woman in a damp room, in a small town, in a certain province of country A, starts “weeping”. A little girl that was hit hard by a car in the same town survives after long hours of surgery.
2. A great “ball of fire” blasts a major city of country B obliterating in a flash of heat tens of thousands of lives and buildings and leading in a few days to the unconditional surrender of country B.
Now which of the two above is the “Real Miracle” for religious people of country A ?
Two countries are at war for some time. Much death and destruction has happened on both sides for years. Lets name them A and B country. One clear morning two extraordinary but confirmed things happen that could be considered miracles.
1. A picture of a religious figure of a woman in a damp room, in a small town, in a certain province of country A, starts “weeping”. A little girl that was hit hard by a car in the same town survives after long hours of surgery.
2. A great “ball of fire” blasts a major city of country B obliterating in a flash of heat tens of thousands of lives and buildings and leading in a few days to the unconditional surrender of country B.
Now which of the two above is the “Real Miracle” for religious people of country A ?
Pouli said:
That example is possibly a mistake or hoax. It is not known if the two events are actually related, and the figure of a woman is a bit poorly defined. Sometimes anything that remotely resembles a woman in white is assumed to be the virgin mary when it is actually a blurry photo of a fence post...
That looks more like a deliberate bombing or coincidential meteor impact than a miracle. But if the ball were truly made of fire, and did not behave like a nuke or a meteor (for example, if it incinerated the city and did not leave a crater or release fallout), then it could be considered a miracle (among many other things).
I'm afraid I cannot tell based on the information provided.
Franko said:
That isnt a miracle, it's literally what youve typed. Just someone claiming they can do something which logically they shouldnt be able to do; i.e. just another wacko, and the reason the JREF still has its $1million after all these years.
synaesthesia
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Re: Re: Explain miracles
So tomorrow is a miracle?
Hazelip said:
So tomorrow is a miracle?
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
Re: Re: Re: Re: Explain miracles
Actually, after only one day, wouldn't it become today?c4ts said:
Plutarck
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Explain miracles
I'll tell you tommarrow.
Upchurch said:
I'll tell you tommarrow.
J3K
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Miracles?? Basically unexplained events right? Something happens that is just IMPOSSIBLE any other way, so it has to be done by god. Well, this makes sense, but i have this lovely hobby that can show a good point that the most IMPOSSIBLE events has an explanation. go here. magicities.com/j3kmagicman/ and you will see things that most of you wont be able to explain. am i god now??
lol. this is mostly a joke, but it makes a point about how miracles have explantions. that is also a real site by the way.
I also have a question. I have heard religous people say god NEVER intervines in the lives of people. So how can miricles even occur? If this is a false statement, somebody please let me know.
lol. this is mostly a joke, but it makes a point about how miracles have explantions. that is also a real site by the way.
I also have a question. I have heard religous people say god NEVER intervines in the lives of people. So how can miricles even occur? If this is a false statement, somebody please let me know.
Guest
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Miracles are explanations by the ignorant. Pretty simple huh?
Angelinthemorning,
Very interesting thread; thx for starting it. I already posted this to another thread, but thought it was very relevant here:
<< People so often think of a miracle as a suspension or breaking of natural laws. In “case-sensitive’s” words, a miracle is “something strange.”
But the biggest miracle is that God loved us enough to send Jesus, even to die for us, & even when we hated Him. And the next biggest (although one that preceded the stable & the Cross) is that He upholds this world, i.e., that He has put those natural laws in place.
It is tragic that, since the time of Descartes (recall his “substances”) & even before, Western culture has thought of the world as self-sufficient. According to this (deist) conception, a miracle is God intervening in the world that can get along just fine without Him, as if He were a blind watchmaker who had set the world in motion on its own. But the biblical God is the One Who stays involved with the creation, to the minutest detail. Infinite & infinitesimal; macro as well as micro.
Come to think of it, this naturalist idea of a self-sufficient world is also a religion of sorts. Everybody has a divinity belief of some kind; the naturalist divinity belief is that the physical world came from nothing & has always existed.
(snip)
-Andrew>>
Very interesting thread; thx for starting it. I already posted this to another thread, but thought it was very relevant here:
<< People so often think of a miracle as a suspension or breaking of natural laws. In “case-sensitive’s” words, a miracle is “something strange.”
But the biggest miracle is that God loved us enough to send Jesus, even to die for us, & even when we hated Him. And the next biggest (although one that preceded the stable & the Cross) is that He upholds this world, i.e., that He has put those natural laws in place.
It is tragic that, since the time of Descartes (recall his “substances”) & even before, Western culture has thought of the world as self-sufficient. According to this (deist) conception, a miracle is God intervening in the world that can get along just fine without Him, as if He were a blind watchmaker who had set the world in motion on its own. But the biblical God is the One Who stays involved with the creation, to the minutest detail. Infinite & infinitesimal; macro as well as micro.
Come to think of it, this naturalist idea of a self-sufficient world is also a religion of sorts. Everybody has a divinity belief of some kind; the naturalist divinity belief is that the physical world came from nothing & has always existed.
(snip)
-Andrew>>