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ExoMars lander

Yeggster said:
Well? ... At least there will be more equipment to salvage parts from, next time Matt Damon, gets left behind.
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I actually watched that movie for the first time a couple of weeks ago (thank you TPB!), and quite enjoyed it. I'd read the book a few years ago, before it became a movie.
I was never convinced by the strength of the wind depiction, though. Given the atmospheric pressure on Mars, I'm not sure what speed it would need to reach to start blowing over a rocket, or uprooting aerials. Sombody else can do the maths. It was worth suspending my disbelief though.
 
jaydeehess said:
Because for the price of a Lamborghini you can deploy a whole whack of Lada's, and at least one of the Russian boxes will probably work.;)
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Yeah, but I look so much better standing on the road next to a broken Lamborghini...
 
jaydeehess said:
Because for the price of a Lamborghini you can deploy a whole whack of Lada's, and at least one of the Russian boxes will probably work.;)
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I have actually had this discussion with US gov't officials.

If, for a given price, the official had a choice between
a) 1 satellite that would definitely work, or
b) 3 satellites, of which 2 would work

The official would go with a), because if he/she went with b), then he/she would have to explain to Congress and 60 Minutes and everyone else why they'd WASTED all that TAXPAYER MONEY on the satellite that FAILED, and exactly how their MANAGEMENT SCREWUPS led to LOSING A VALUABLE ASSET.

And whenever I said that this was how I perceived it, they'd say, "of course," and give me a puzzled look as if they didn't see why such an obvious point was worth mentioning.
 
dasmiller said:
(some snipped)

And whenever I said that this was how I perceived it, they'd say, "of course," and give me a puzzled look as if they didn't see why such an obvious point was worth mentioning.
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Good example of the difference between local and global decision-making. Context matters. Engineers and project managers are solving different problems.
 
elgarak said:
Yeah, I simplified probably a bit too much for compactness. The point is that there's no single scheme that alone solves the problem. You have to deal with the atmosphere, and can use it to a certain degree, but you still have to employ some other means to get all the way down safely.

The thing that always pops into my mind are the old Wernher von Braun plans for going to Mars. He never bothered to think about the landing too much, because, at the time, it was thought the atmosphere was thick enough to use plane-like wings all the way down.
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Sure, I think we can agree that currently all practical missions to the surface of Mars will have to make use of the atmosphere to shed velocity, especially for larger masses. And then, yes the atmosphere is hard to deal with and not ideal for the job at all.

Ah, the Marsprojekt! Here is a nice overview that presents the mission as lined out in Collier's back in the day with many of the great artist renderings:
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/wernher-von-brauns-martian-chronicles-9845747/?no-ist

The landing vehicles were essentially planes touching down on pre-prepared runways. :D
 
jonesdave116 said:
Given the atmospheric pressure on Mars, I'm not sure what speed it would need to reach to start blowing over a rocket, or uprooting aerials. Sombody else can do the maths. It was worth suspending my disbelief though.
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It couldn't happen, storms that move heavy objects cannot exist on Mars. Andy Wier has pointed out that he just wasn't able to think of another plot device. ;)
 
jonesdave116 said:
I actually watched that movie for the first time a couple of weeks ago (thank you TPB!), and quite enjoyed it ....
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I found it entertaining! ... the concept is interesting ... the winds? ... I never though of that ... they could have come up with a mars earthquake or impending metro shower if the winds are not technically correct .. probably cheaper for SFX too
 
Pianoro said:
It couldn't happen, storms that move heavy objects cannot exist on Mars. Andy Wier has pointed out that he just wasn't able to think of another plot device. ;)
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We,l I came upon its two ... in a few seconds :) ... a Mars Earthquake (that tips the ship) .. or an impending meteor shower ..
 
Yeggster said:
I found it entertaining!
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I enjoyed the movie. Apart from being good entertainment and having nice visuals, I really liked how Watney wields science and engineering to get himself out of (and occasionally into) trouble.

Yeggster said:
We,l I came upon its two ... in a few seconds :) ... a Mars Earthquake (that tips the ship) .. or an impending meteor shower ..
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Well, but it needed to be an emergency situation that grows continually more dire while still giving them some time to evacuate (so Watney could be stranded all by himself). If the ascent vehicle just tips over in an instant that wouldn't really work, would it? Plus, the storm also served the purpose of separating Watney from the rest of the crew.

The only thing I can think of is the rest of the crew simply dying in some sort of accident (a fairly likely outcome of a Mars misson anyway :D) leaving Watney as the sole survivor to be rescued by another crew. But then, a lot of the character dynamics and the choices the crew in the spaceship made depended on him being part of their team...

ETA: Perhaps also sandworms might have worked. ;)
 
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Yeggster said:
I found it entertaining! ... the concept is interesting ... the winds? ... I never though of that ... they could have come up with a mars earthquake or impending metro shower if the winds are not technically correct .. probably cheaper for SFX too
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I think Mars is geologically dead (ETA - Well, look at that, it's not, I've learned a thing) and that a meteor shower would have had knock on effects in terms of the launch of the other crew.

Additionally, the plot requires that Watney be separated from the rest of the crew which can only really be done during the event.

I can't see how either of your ideas would be as good as that in the book, the marsquake is just as dubious scientifically and the meteor shower doesn't achieve the required result from a plot point of view.
 
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jonesdave116 said:
I actually watched that movie for the first time a couple of weeks ago (thank you TPB!), and quite enjoyed it. I'd read the book a few years ago, before it became a movie.
I was never convinced by the strength of the wind depiction, though. Given the atmospheric pressure on Mars, I'm not sure what speed it would need to reach to start blowing over a rocket, or uprooting aerials. Sombody else can do the maths. It was worth suspending my disbelief though.
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Slightly colossal, and way beyond any recorded Martian wind speed (so far)

For anyone living/working on Mars, the biggest danger presented by storms is probably dust... dust... and more dust, but it would be hard for movie-makers make a plausible dramatic escape scene from the insidious encroachment of dust! I can see there being a catchphrase for future occupants of Mars....

"Dust Never Sleeps"

As Samuel Clemens once said "Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.". NGDT said something similar about this film; he was happy with it overall scientific accuracy.

NOTE: All of Weir's flight plans for Hermes in the "The Martian" pass all the orbital mechanics mathematical tests/ The "Rich Purnell Maneuver" is a real world orbital trajectory that would work...

TIP: Full screen on this video is easier to see
 
This never happens to me in KSP!

(Then again, they've just updated it so it can, so it almost certainly will soon)


They should have quicksaved.
 
I excused the winds as a plot device to get to the real story... the horror of being stranded there alone. Worked for me, in fact it was on again late night last night. Rewatched it. :thumbsup:

And I do love the percussion of Disco so I enjoy the occasional excuse to listen to a little of it, unlike Watney. :p


- Almost walks out without his helmet... "Space Pirate" indeed. :rolleyes:

:D
 
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Yeggster said:
Yes they happen now and then .. in 2009 there was a massive one it made news headlines
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OMG! Was anyone hurt? I haven't heard from my ex-girlfriend since about that time, she always wore yellow dresses.
 
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