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Existence vs Awareness

Iacchus said:
Well, if whatever it is, is impossible to know, we are in effect saying anything is possible.
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No, we're not. We're saying that we cannot know, at least at this point, how the universe came into beign. That does not mean that the universe is impossible. In fact, the very fact that it DOES exist means that it's NOT impossible.

Logic isn't your strong point, is it ?

Iacchus said:
I did? No, I'm afraid we haven't advanced the argument that far yet.
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Well, you pretty much claim to believe in God, and you claim that the laws of the universe were made in advance, so is it safe to assume that you believe the lawmaker to be God ?

It's strickly a matter of common sense. Most would refer to it as cause-and-effect.
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Which makes no sense if TIME DOESN'T EXIST, Iacchus.

Even if they are imaginary (as in concepts), they are still things.
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They are concept describing things that do not exist. That's my point.

If we weren't referring to something that was real (with real consequences), there wouldn't be much point in bringing it up would there?
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What consequences ? There are consequences to breaking the laws of physics (not our description of them) because that can't be done.
 
Iacchus said:
I'm speaking of freefall within open space (I assumed that's what Mercutio meant?), not within the atmosphere of a big hunk of mass such as the earth.
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How can you free fall away from a gravity source ?

Iacchus said:
Well, I honestly can't conceive of it getting here on its own, not without something existing prior to it. Got any ideas?
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But that's not what you claimed. You said that because it was impossible to know the origin of the universe, then the universe is impossible, which is incorrect in many ways.

And the mere fact that you are ignorant on the matter doesn't mean anything except that you are ignorant.

Iacchus said:
And that's a metaphor, and incorrectly used. You see, I am quite capaple of learning, from all the wonderful nonsense coming from you. ;)
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No, you're not.
 
Iacchus said:
Just evidence that we exist with "no strings" attached.
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Shouldn't there BE strings attached if there WAS a creator ?

Iacchus said:
The whole of human history is rife with tales of the supernatural.
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Yeah. Tales.

Iacchus said:
Isn't this really your point, since we can't really prove it one way or the other? ... And, if we were living in The Matrix, doesn't this suggest that intelligence (thus giving rise to awareness) has been an inherent part of reality all along?
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And if we're NOT living in the matrix ?
 
Nyarlathotep said:
And the whole of human history is rife with tales of people faking supernatural events for their own gain. And the whole of humanhistory is rife with crazy people. And the whole of humanhistory is rife with people making mistakes and seeing perfectly ordinary things as supernatural. And the whole of humanhistory is rife with people ascribing supernatural explanations to things they simply do not understand.

Your point being?
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Yes, and the whole of recent human history is rife with used cars salesmen. Your point being? ;)
 
Iacchus said:
Yes, and the whole of recent human history is rife with used cars salesmen. Your point being? ;)
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My point being that the fact that human history has all kinds of tales of the supernatural doesn't mean a whole heckuva lot for all of the reasons I mentioned. So what was yours?
 
Nyarlathotep said:
Don't you get it Belz? If you can't prove him absolutely 100% wrong, if there can be any wriggle room whatsoever, then obviously Iacchus is right.

Duh.
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Yes, it's been explained to me over and over again that it's impossible to know what came before the Big Bang. And yet here we are pondering the whole idea. Just think of all the improbability that entails. Isn't it a wonder that we're capable of knowing anything at all? If we are in fact living in The Matrix, perhaps this is what gives rise to all these tales of the supernatural the whole of human history seems to be rife with? Where there are those who have in fact come into contact with the curator(s) of The Matrix.
 
Nyarlathotep said:
My point being that the fact that human history has all kinds of tales of the supernatural doesn't mean a whole heckuva lot for all of the reasons I mentioned. So what was yours?
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That we shouldn't necessarily constitute an abundance of fakes with the original? In fact, by the sheer abundance, suggests there must have been an original copy at some point. This is just human nature. When something good comes along, everyone wants a piece of the action, and an abundance of fakes and forgeries are sure to follow.
 
Not to mention that when people are put in a position of authority, they have a tendency to become corrupt.
 
Iacchus said:
That we shouldn't necessarily constitute an abundance of fakes with the original? In fact, by the sheer abundance, suggests there must have been an original copy at some point. This is just human nature. When something good comes along, everyone wants a piece of the action, and an abundance of fakes and forgeries are sure to follow.
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Dude, the next time you are in a library or a bookstore, look for a section called 'Fiction', It is usually pretty sizable so it should be easy to find. Every book on those shelves was created by people just making stuff up. Why then should the fact that people fake supernatural events be proof that real supernatural events occured? Obviously, people make stuff up all the time.
 
Nyarlathotep said:
Dude, the next time you are in a library or a bookstore, look for a section called 'Fiction', It is usually pretty sizable so it should be easy to find. Every book on those shelves was created by people just making stuff up. Why then should the fact that people fake supernatural events be proof that real supernatural events occured? Obviously, people make stuff up all the time.
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Fiction? Is this all you ever read when you go to the library? Also, people can give a fictional account of "physical things" as well you know.
 
Iacchus said:
Also, people can give a fictional account of "physical things" as well you know.
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It's better than not reading anything at all, Iacchus. But you have just staed exactly my point. The difference is that I'm not the one claiming that the fact that people make up fake tales of the supernatural, proves that the supernatural is real.
 
Iacchus said:
Yes, it's been explained to me over and over again that it's impossible to know what came before the Big Bang. And yet here we are pondering the whole idea. Just think of all the improbability that entails.
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It entails none. Once more you conflate knowledge with reality.

Isn't it a wonder that we're capable of knowing anything at all? If we are in fact living in The Matrix, perhaps this is what gives rise to all these tales of the supernatural the whole of human history seems to be rife with? Where there are those who have in fact come into contact with the curator(s) of The Matrix.
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If you were capable of extending your thoughts beyond that little bubble of yours, you'd know that this line of reasoning is useless because there would still be no way to tell the difference. Why would a non-matrix universe be any LESS likely to have those tales ?
 
Iacchus said:
That we shouldn't necessarily constitute an abundance of fakes with the original? In fact, by the sheer abundance, suggests there must have been an original copy at some point. This is just human nature. When something good comes along, everyone wants a piece of the action, and an abundance of fakes and forgeries are sure to follow.
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You're forgetting the very important category of things completely made up.
 
Nyarlathotep said:
It's better than not reading anything at all, Iacchus. But you have just staed exactly my point. The difference is that I'm not the one claiming that the fact that people make up fake tales of the supernatural, proves that the supernatural is real.
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A lie is a lie. One need not speak of the supernatural in order to commit one.
 
Nyarlathotep said:
Never said one did. But again, I am not the one claiming that the fact that people lie about the supernatural proves it to be real.
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But you seem be to saying that anyone who makes a claim about the supernatural is a liar.
 
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