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Executions

Why are the relatives of the victims and the public invited to watch executions of convicted killers if it isn't for reasons of tit for tat?

Are you claiming that at executions of convicted rapists and other non-murdering thugs, we typically didn't invite the victims to the execution? This is, in fact, not the case; the wronged party has always had a front row seat at executions, regardless of the nature of the crime.

I'm not sure how the fact that witnessing the punishment helps the victims with closure, is related to your claim that capital punishment is uniquely seen as a "tit for tat" punishment.
 
Are you claiming that at executions of convicted rapists and other non-murdering thugs, we typically didn't invite the victims to the execution?

No.

This is, in fact, not the case; the wronged party has always had a front row seat at executions, regardless of the nature of the crime.

Tit for tat does not require the punishment to be proportional to the crime, only that an agent retaliates when injured. Eye for an eye does not require the punishment be identical, but rather 'fitting' for the crime. Obviously what is considered fitting depends on cultural norms and the public appetite for violent retribution.

I'm not sure how the fact that witnessing the punishment helps the victims with closure, is related to your claim that capital punishment is uniquely seen as a "tit for tat" punishment.

Is it a fact that watching a person being punished helps victims with closure?
 
Sorry, can you please restate what you believe is uniquely true about capital punishment in this context?
 
Sorry, can you please restate what you believe is uniquely true about capital punishment in this context?

That it is performed as an attempt to satisfy the blood lust of victims and society. It sends the message that it's okay to hurt someone if they've hurt you. It totally ignores rehabilitation.
 
Innocent people will absolutely be executed.
So, let's assume we actually have a time machine. We can go back and see (but not change) the past and know 100% completely full proof that person X is the murderer.

Would you support or object to executions in this instance?
 
Executions (in America) are more expensive than just locking the criminal up for life.

Do you have any info on this?

This is a subject that I have always found interesting but never saw definitive figures on the subject.
 
Are you for or against the death penalty?

You can't be both at the same time.

No... I guess not, But I can switch back and forth depending what case I see....

Personally I agree in principal with a death penalty. There is no reason men like the two involved in the Conn. home invasion to be alive. They waste valuable air.

But there is not a country in the world that has a death penalty I'd accept... so essentially I'm against it.
 
Tit for tat does not require the punishment to be proportional to the crime, only that an agent retaliates when injured. Eye for an eye does not require the punishment be identical, but rather 'fitting' for the crime. Obviously what is considered fitting depends on cultural norms and the public appetite for violent retribution.

The identicalness is kind of the point of "eye for an eye," as opposed to say, "prison for an eye." If you're defining tit for tat as a punishment that fits a crime based on the cultural norms, any kind of criminal sentence at all is "eye for an eye."
 
The identicalness is kind of the point of "eye for an eye," as opposed to say, "prison for an eye." If you're defining tit for tat as a punishment that fits a crime based on the cultural norms, any kind of criminal sentence at all is "eye for an eye."

No it's not. Some countries focus on protection of the public, and where possible rehabilitation and making amends rather than punishment.
 
It sends the message that it's okay to hurt someone if they've hurt you. It totally ignores rehabilitation.
True (only) in the same sense as requiring a loantaker to pay back the loan totally ignores the possibility of forgiving the debt.
 
So, let's assume we actually have a time machine. We can go back and see (but not change) the past and know 100% completely full proof that person X is the murderer.

Would you support or object to executions in this instance?

I have already posted several times that my objections to executions are practical. I oppose executions only because we risk executing an innocent person, and because we do not practice a blind application of the death penalty. Remove these hurdles and I lose my objection to judicial executions.
 
Do you have any info on this?

Do you dispute my contention that a death penalty judgment costs more than a life sentence?

This is a subject that I have always found interesting but never saw definitive figures on the subject.

The very first link that Google retured when asked "how much per execution" returned this in the very first paragraph "Twelve prisoners have been executed in the United States so far in 2011. Ending these lives was a costly endeavor. The costs associated with a death sentence — $3 million on average — are three times greater than the costs associated with a life sentence. "

The web site that hosted the article dd not appear to be an anti-death penalty site. Indeed, it appeared to be a economics centric site. The articles author may have an agenda - I didn't read far nough to discern that. Of course, it doesn't matter if there is a bias if the information is correct. There are millions of links to choose from.

Of note, even Texas spends three times as much on capital cases as life sentence cases. The state that should have the most effecient execution process spends 3x as much to execute someone as it does to incarcerate them for 40 years.
 
No.



Tit for tat does not require the punishment to be proportional to the crime, only that an agent retaliates when injured. Eye for an eye does not require the punishment be identical, but rather 'fitting' for the crime. Obviously what is considered fitting depends on cultural norms and the public appetite for violent retribution.

You seem to apply the same definition to tit-for-tat as most of us apply to punishment.

The death penalty is punishment. The death penalty is not necessarily tit-for-tat punishment. Your original argument was that executions are barbaric because they are "eye for an eye" propositions. I believe it has been demonstrated that executions are not "eye for an eye" actions, leaving no need to answer as to whether or not retaliatory punishments would actually be barbaric.
 
I have already posted several times that my objections to executions are practical. I oppose executions only because we risk executing an innocent person, and because we do not practice a blind application of the death penalty.
A bit uncomfortable, because if truth be told, much of the pro-war Congress would lose their heads first.
 
So, let's assume we actually have a time machine. We can go back and see (but not change) the past and know 100% completely full proof that person X is the murderer.

Would you support or object to executions in this instance?

I'd still object - I'm not willing to give the state the right to kill me (that's a bit against my pragmatism but I'm not perfect). To me there is nothing more "big government" then letting it kill you.
 
That it is performed as an attempt to satisfy the blood lust of victims and society. It sends the message that it's okay to hurt someone if they've hurt you. It totally ignores rehabilitation.

Ah, so you're claiming that capital punishment is unique in that it is primarily a retributive punishment.

I disagree. I believe that the primary purpose for criminal punishments in our society is deterrence, and I believe that neither prison nor execution have much rehabilitation effect.
 
We arrest/confine people for many other crimes, not just specifically kidnapping. Similarly people are fined for crimes other than theft. Typically the choice of punishment is not based directly on the actions involved in the crime, except in the case of murder, where the death penalty is used because the state murdering someone is seen as appropriate when that person has been found guilty of murder.
First of all, the state does not "murder" anyone. By definition "murder" is the unlawful taking of a human life. You may disagree with the death penalty (heck, I do too, but not for the reason you've given), but given the fact that its been approved by the courts and various executive/legislative bodies, it is not "unlawful". Calling a state-run execution "murder" is just cheap rhetoric.

Secondly, it seems like you're still under the misguided notion that its "murder for murder". But its not. Not all murders get put to death. And when a person is put to death, they are typically executed in a way that's more humane than what the murder's victim went through. Yes, the convicted killer "dies" in an execution, but its not exactly a perfect overlap.
Some countries focus on protection of the public, and where possible rehabilitation and making amends rather than punishment.
Those goals are not always contradictory with the death penalty.

An executed individual will be even less likely to be a threat to the public than someone in prison for life. (After all, people do escape jail, not to mention incidences of jailhouse violence.)

Rehabilitation sounds like a good idea, but given the fact that individuals who are sentenced to death probably wouldn't be released anyways its kind of a moot point.

As for making amends, there's often very little that a convicted killer could do to "make amends". The opportunity to be a contributing member to society is limited from in jail. And its quite possible that the only "value" they could ever provide is the closure that's provided to the friends/families of those they've killed by being executed themselves. (Note: I do recognize that not everyone would have the same attitude towards a "killer"... some victim's families may grant forgiveness. There are no universal rules here.)

Seriously... there is one very good reason to oppose the death penalty: The chance of executing an innocent person. That should really be the only argument anyone ever needs to make. Everything else that people bring up seems counterproductive.
 
What's humane about being kept in a cage for days/months/years thinking you're going to be killed, then forcefully walked or dragged to your death by either electrocution or being strapped to a table while some idiot bumbles around trying to find a vein with a needle to inject you with a fatal overdose?

Are some people born evil?
 
What's humane about being kept in a cage for days/months/years thinking you're going to be killed, then forcefully walked or dragged to your death by either electrocution or being strapped to a table while some idiot bumbles around trying to find a vein with a needle to inject you with a fatal overdose?

Are some people born evil?
What's humane about being kept in a cage for decades, possibly with the risk of getting assaulted by other inmates? (Or if you are in solitary confinement, going long periods of time with no contact with other people.) Living your whole life knowing you will probably never be free again, that you will die in prison.

Do you really think being forced to "think about your upcoming execution" in any way competes with what (for example) Ted Bundy's victims went through?
 
What's humane about being kept in a cage for days/months/years thinking you're going to be killed, then forcefully walked or dragged to your death by either electrocution or being strapped to a table while some idiot bumbles around trying to find a vein with a needle to inject you with a fatal overdose?

Who argued that executions were humane? After several seconds of thought, I've reached to conclusion that punishment need not be humane to avoid being either cruel or unusual.

Are some people born evil?

Probably as often as some people are born able to resist presenting a logical argument, devoid of appeals to emotion.


You are all over the place. It appears that you oppose the death penalty because you believe it to be "wrong". That's fine - but just say so.

Rehabilitation may be an achievable goal with some criminals. The rate of recidivism in the US is very high, and so far the costs associated with attempts at rehabilitation do not seem to be providing an acceptable ROI. Indeed, murderers are already the offenders least likely to re-commit the same crime after punsihment.

Protecting society from criminals is a more important goal, and rehabilitation is only persuable because it may provide society with better protection. Punishment is also a valid goal for our criminal justice system, and so long as some attention is pad to proportionality, I am okay with capitol punishment in principle.
 

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