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Evolution: the Facts.

Lowpro, what do you think of epigenetics affecting gene regulation? While that may be consistent with an evolutionary model, it is frankly NeoLamarckian and something many of the scientists I mentioned whether Grasse or even Goldschmidt and lesser scientists like Davison and many front loaders predicted quite awhile back and were bitterly mocked by mainstream NeoDarwinist evolutionists.

It definitely caught my attention, however, that those that were mocked specifically predicted this. Not saying personally that common descent is even true necessarily, but it's interesting how things turned out here.
 
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I guess we will have to add to Mark Twain's phrase that ''The only 2 certainties in life are death and taxes.'' A third certainty is that in any honest discussion on evolution, an ID/Creationist will try to spoil it.


Apparently, Benjamin Franklin originated the phrase. Twain repeated it.

Hardly spoiling. The term fish gills or slits is not a mere expression but a deply erroneous and misleading one and should never be used to indoctrinate students into thinking these arches are actually anything related to gills at all because they most assuredly are not.
 
You know I'll be honest. I have almost no academic experience with epigenetics; I couldn't tell you any more than what wikipedia says (except for totipotency)

I just don't know the mechanism for how genes are silenced pretranscription through methylation.

I also don't know about those scientists who predicted that such a mechanism of gene silencing occurred and were mocked, though I'm sure it happens. Mocking seems to be the Rush Week introduction for all theories.

If it's similar to miRNA then I find any attempt to describe it as against the model of evolution to be very dubious, considering something like miRNA follows the ToE very well.

If I can try to give an example to bridge the connection, epigenetics focuses on pretranscriptional gene silencing; ie something blocks RNA polymerase from transcribing a gene and thus whatever that gene actually codes shouldn't be present. miRNA is the same thing effectively, but posttranscriptional; the miR's bind to mRNA and halt translation of the protein.

Now, miRNA is easily understood through the ToE and it's actually obvious why; miR's are part of the introns of your DNA (The very introns everyone for one reason or another believes aren't useful) and are conserved with the gene that is being passed down; they happen to go together (and again that's just for THAT miR, many miR's can regulate genes which it ISN'T associated directly with; it's just a matter of base pair context)
 
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Hardly spoiling. The term fish gills or slits is not a mere expression but a deply erroneous and misleading one and should never be used to indoctrinate students into thinking these arches are actually anything related to gills at all because they most assuredly are not.

Unless we're actually talking about fish embryos? Really that's not what's being taught at least not now, and neodarwinists sure as hell aren't saying that it's the case.

I would say that from my experiences with you on the subject that the only ones who teach that gill slits are part of "human gills" would be creationists setting up a strawman.
 
Just getting the facts out there. Why are some of you so troubled by it. Even some that tried to defend haeckel's drawings as evidence still admitted they were widely used. Note the following bolded parts.

The embryo drawings are still widely printed in reference books and student texts, and have therefore been widely accepted as teaching devices (Gould, 2000). They are also used in technical scientific publications (Duboule, 1994 ; Butler and Juurlink, 1987). Their modern use is to illustrate one or more of the same three points that Haeckel intended, namely : embryonic resemblance as evidence of evolution ; phenotypic divergence ; and recapitu- lation. The eight embryos from NatuW rliche SchoW pfungs- geschichte (Haeckel, 1874c) are redrawn in the modern text Biology (Arms and Camp, 1995), and were used to illustrate embryonic development in The Study of Animal Life (Thomson, 1917).
The most widely reproduced of Haeckel’s embryo drawings are the set in the first edition of Anthropogenie (Haeckel, 1874 a). In several text books, the drawings are used as scientific illustrations to show the reader what embryos look like (Wilson, 1886 ; Lull, 1927 ; Cole, 1933). They have been widely used in numerous standard works (e.g. Alberts et al., 1994; Collins, 1995 ; Gilbert, 1997) and in countless student texts (e.g. Kardong, 1995; Gould, Keeton & Gould, 1996; Gerhart & Kirschner, 1997; Mu$ ller, 1997). Embryo plates from later Anthropogenie editions are copied by some authors (e.g. Platt and Reid, 1967; Leakey, 1986). These texts faithfully reproduce scientific errors in Haeckel’s original (e.g. his depiction of the forelimb bud of the chick embryo, in the middle row of the plate, as being a caudal member of the pharyngeal arch series).
Some texts appear to have copied their drawings second-hand, rather than directly from Haeckel. The version in Darwin and After Darwin (Romanes, 1892) is the commonest secondary source (Fig. 6). Some books (e.g. Phillips, 1975; Minkoff, 1983).

Haeckel presented the embryo drawings as data in support of his hypotheses. Therefore, scientists disagreeing with Haeckel’s views have often chal- lenged the accuracy of the drawings (Richardson et al., 1997), and their interpretation. Other criticisms of the drawings, which will not be discussed here, are religious or political in motivation (e.g. Assmuth & Hull, 1915).

Wilhelm His was ideologically opposed to Haeckel’s views (Gerber, 1944 ; Richardson & Keuck, 2001) and used an empirical, morphometric approach to challenge the embryonic resemblances depicted in Haeckel’s drawings (see Section IV. 4b) below). Unfortunately, however, most scientists discussing embryonic similarity have done little more than make subjective judgements about overall appearances, and this approach to comparative embryology is essentially phenetic. For example, Yapp (1955 : p. 673) claims that : ‘ ... a 545 day chick and a 13-day rabbit embryo are almost indis- tinguishable ’. Dubious phenetic statements of this type reflect the lack of a rigorous approach to comparative embryology.
Scientific objections to Haeckel’s drawings (Table 2) include charges of : (i) doctoring (the alteration of images during copying); (ii) fabrication (the in- vention of features not observed in nature) ; and (iii) selectivity (the use of a misleading phylogenetic sample). Various authors have made these charges, as reviewed by Gursch (1981), who concentrates on non-scientific aspects of the controversy.

http://www.mk-richardson.com/pdf/biolrevs.pdf
 
You know I'll be honest. I have almost no academic experience with epigenetics; I couldn't tell you any more than what wikipedia says (except for totipotency)

I just don't know the mechanism for how genes are silenced pretranscription through methylation.

I also don't know about those scientists who predicted that such a mechanism of gene silencing occurred and were mocked, though I'm sure it happens. Mocking seems to be the Rush Week introduction for all theories.

If it's similar to miRNA then I find any attempt to describe it as against the model of evolution to be very dubious, considering something like miRNA follows the ToE very well.

If I can try to give an example to bridge the connection, epigenetics focuses on pretranscriptional gene silencing; ie something blocks RNA polymerase from transcribing a gene and thus whatever that gene actually codes shouldn't be present. miRNA is the same thing effectively, but posttranscriptional; the miR's bind to mRNA and halt translation of the protein.

Now, miRNA is easily understood through the ToE and it's actually obvious why; miR's are part of the introns of your DNA (The very introns everyone for one reason or another believes aren't useful) and are conserved with the gene that is being passed down; they happen to go together (and again that's just for THAT miR, many miR's can regulate genes which it ISN'T associated directly with; it's just a matter of base pair context)

Thanks for the response. May have to look into miRNA more.

ETA: One reason I suspect you see "everyone" saying the introns are not useful has to do with past arguments you may not be aware of, related to Intelligent Design, whose proponents argued we should see such things like an engineer would, from a design perspective, and that they are very critical and useful.

So naturally, if "everyone" in your world are evolutionists, such findings may not be as welcome. From a quick review on-line, I noted that some ID theorists heralded the discoveries and seem to suggest they were a confirmation of things they said or predicted earlier, but will need to read a little more on that.
 
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ETA: One reason I suspect you see "everyone" saying the introns are not useful has to do with past arguments you may not be aware of, related to Intelligent Design, whose proponents argued we should see such things like an engineer would, from a design perspective, and that they are very critical and useful.

So naturally, if "everyone" in your world are evolutionists, such findings may not be as welcome. From a quick review on-line, I noted that some ID theorists heralded the discoveries and seem to suggest they were a confirmation of things they said or predicted earlier, but will need to read a little more on that.
I do not know about "everyone", but when I was young in the 70'es, I read in the newspaper that some cryptographers had analysed the so-called "junk DNA" and found that it was not random, but definitely constituted a code. It fitted well into my youthful view that of course we did not have lots and lots of introns that had no significance whatsoever. Since then there has been a growing insight into what introns might do, and in the past few years it has become quite strong.

Scientific American which is my main source of scientific news has published several articles about the former "junk DNA", so I doubt that it is reasonable to use the term "everyone" here. I also think that it was a no-brainer to realise that introns had a significance, so it can hardly be counted as evidence for creationism, but it can be counted as evidence for how difficult it is to change scientific consensus, but it is also showing that it is possible.
 
The idea that ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny has been so completely discredited that, as Gould noted, many scientists shied awway from discussing phylogenetic implications of embrionic development for fear of the APPEARANCE of agreeing with Haeckel's idea. Gould outlined this in one of his books. This shows 2 things that randman refuses to undrestand: first, science threw out Haeckel's ideas. This is rather unfortunate on Randman's part because the truth is more damning for us evolutionary scientists--we didn't just throw out the idea that ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny, we threw out Haeckel's ideas--which included some really good ones. Science is not kind to members that commit fraud.

What would happen if one didn't throw out the "really good ones"?
 
Lowpro said:
Now? Not much, Evo-Devo turned Haeckel's drawings into a Betamax player...
Well, the study would likely be far more advanced than it currently is. I mean, randman does occasionally get something right, and one of those is that we don't have a really good understanding of the role ontogeny plays in evolution. It's obvious that it has to play SOME role, but WHAT is still largely up in the air, far as I know (and understand, I'm not an expert in this--I deal with organisms almost exclusively after they've hatched/been born, as that's what fossilizes).

I'd say that the greatest impacts would be unknowable. We simply can't predict what would have happened, had we dealt with Haeckel in a more rational fashion. We may have seen ontological manipulation prior to genetic manipulation, or we may have seen some other great scandal shake the whole system. Sadly, we'll never know--we're stuck with the fact that Haeckel committed fraud, and our science is depleted because of it.
 
Welcome to science. It's self-correcting, but on a much longer timeframe than a typical career. I often wonder what errors we're committing that will impact future generations in similar ways. Makes you double-check your calculations, that's for sure!
 
Welcome to science. It's self-correcting, but on a much longer timeframe than a typical career. I often wonder what errors we're committing that will impact future generations in similar ways. Makes you double-check your calculations, that's for sure!

Well I don't feel it's any progressive when you allow something like fraudulent theories to hold you down, especially when they aren't theories you yourself are expected to burden ANYWAYS. Kids in a classroom aren't expected to be burdened with Pythagoras's "Music of the Spheres" when they learn about the Solar System...

seems unrequired.
 
Lowpro said:
seems unrequired.
De facto vs. de jury. It's certainly not required by the scientific method--we frequently pull apart partially-correct ideas, or data that at one time was used to support theories now shown to be incorrect, and use those to establish new theories. The issue is that the culture of science is such that accusations of fraud are very, very, VERY serious business. It takes a lot to convince people that a researcher may have been guilty of fraud, and some have argued that it takes too much, that too much fraud goes without official recognition and reprisal for too long (unofficial recognition is common, as can bee seen in the comments to the paper on marsupial ear evolution randman keeps referencing). The flip side of this is that scientists tend to go a bit overboard once fraud is proven. People generally dismiss the entire body of work, or at least substantial chunks of it, and in major cases like Haeckel they avoid that entire concept. It's throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but eventually someone will find the body.
 
No that I do understand, but I wasn't considering the "culture of scientists" just scientific knowledge in general. Evo-devo theory would exist completely the same without Haeckel's drawings, theories, all of it. It would exist without the ToE, because no matter what the understanding of natural selection, an embryo is still going to develop. The fact that there is a perception of its data as "tainted" with Haeckel seems a foisted illusion that I find hard to subscribe to.
 
A lot of people agree with you. Gould spoke about exactly that in the introduction to his book on the topic. Problem is, many people also disagree with you.
 
Problem is, many people also disagree with you.

They can disagree all they want, but there's no leg to stand on for it. You wouldn't find randman agreeing with himself if it were the other way around and ID were de facto true, but people like Davidson, Behe, etc had their data wrong.

It's not even justified discontent, it's just discontent because you can't be stroked to the tune you enjoy most -.-
 
Lowpro said:
They can disagree all they want, but there's no leg to stand on for it.
Well, the justification for throwing out all the data is that we don't know that the other data wasn't tainted. And once someone's declared a fraud, the burden of proof shifts to the people arguing that THIS data is good, even though THAT data was bad. Avoiding all their data gets around that problem. Because science bows to data, obtaining new data should lead to the same conclusion if the fraud was correct--it just takes a long time.
 
Well, the justification for throwing out all the data is that we don't know that the other data wasn't tainted. And once someone's declared a fraud, the burden of proof shifts to the people arguing that THIS data is good, even though THAT data was bad. Avoiding all their data gets around that problem. Because science bows to data, obtaining new data should lead to the same conclusion if the fraud was correct--it just takes a long time.

I guess I hate that it takes that long...I can pretty much do it instantly, I don't know why everyone else cannot.
 

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