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Evolution (quick) Masterclass

There is no point in debating with ignorant people. Go check out a book at the library.

Also no point in arguing with dishonest people. A creationist who is also a scientist would know that there arguments are false. He could still believe, but using those arguments would be dishonest.

I can sympathize. I know what it is like to believe something yet have no argument that I believed in.
 
Now I did make some comments that are not about the actual biological processes happening within an organism. I would like to bolster them a bit further here. As a layman reading material written by scientists that has been published for the world to see, I believe I can rightly say, because of the their own statements, macroevolution is still only a theory and not fact.
The main problem with this statement is that "macroevolution" is an ill-defined term. There is no consistently defined distinction between macro and micro evolution.

Historically, macroevolution was considered speciation or higher level changes. However, speciation has been directly observed (see http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html). Most creationists now define macroevolution as changes in kind - unfortunately, they don't tell us what "kinds" are. You yourself referred to macroevolution as changing to a "higher life form" - I suspect that you probably only have an intuitive, imprecise definition of what that is.

The inability to set a precise, well-defined "limit" for evolution suggests to me that a) there is no evidence that such a limit exists and b) that there is a fear that any such limit may be shown to false by the ever-increasing body of scientific evidence. How can I show that macroevolution occurs if I don't know what it is?

Talk.Origins states evolution is both a theory and a fact. I have also heard and read this elsewhere. I do not accept the "fact" part for this reason.
Evolution is an extensive concept, some parts of which are fact, and others are theory, etc. Facts are the pieces of evidence which can be used to support one or more theories. Facts do not change when the theories explaining them do.

In its simplest form, evolution is change over time. When you breed fruit flies in a lab, and traits change in the population, you have observed evolution - this observation is a scientific fact. Why they changed is potentially up for debate, but that they did change is a fact.

I suggest you reread the Talk Origins link with this in mind: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html
 
There is no point in debating with ignorant people.

Sorry, I have to disagree with this. There is a point to debating with ignorant people if by doing this you can reduce their level of ignorance. Of course, branding someone as "ignorant" on the basis that they don't know as much about a particular subject as you do is doing them a major disservice. Ignorance is not complete, nor is it irreversable.

However, arguing with stubborn people is different. I have encountered quite a few stubborn creationists in my time, and debating them is more or less futile.

On the other hand, we had a poster over at CreationTalk a while back who started as a creationist, but actually read the references we gave him and became at least a little less ignorant about evolution than he was. He came to the opinion that evolution was at least not impossible, which was a big step.
 
The second reason I can’t accept macroevolution is because of my religious beliefs.

Christian Dude:

I've read over this thread and I'm very interested in something.

I find the fact that you don't believe in evolution almost unfathomable. I can't imagine NOT believing in evolution. It's just been a part of my education and beliefs as far back as I can remember.

I'd be interested to hear more about your background and education that would have led you to your beliefs.

However, I know this thread isn't the place. Let's leave this to the relevant discussion at hand.

But...would you mind having that discussion in a new thread? Let me know if you're interested.

I'd sincerely like to hear more.

Thanks,
SC
 
I find the fact that you don't believe in evolution almost unfathomable. I can't imagine NOT believing in evolution. It's just been a part of my education and beliefs as far back as I can remember.
Do you really think it's a matter of belief, though, of "believing in"?

To me, saying I "believe in" evolution is like saying I believe in DNA, or the earth going around the sun, or the refraction of light. These things aren't articles of faith to be believed in or not.

So I never say I "believe in" it. It's not something to believe in; it's something to understand (or not).
 
I will answer SuperCoolGuy’s question to me, then I think I need to stop commenting about biological processes I do not have the level of education, expertise or familiarity with as most of you here seem to have.
Just consider that any true fact that you know about biology is known to biologists. Who are the people who find out these facts in the first place.

The same goes for physics and the Big Bang. You may take it that anything which you can remember from high school was also known to Einstein.

To clarify my thoughts, it is a two fold reason I can’t accept macroevolution. The first reason, which I will phrase as a question, will probably show my ignorance in genetics and biology, but here goes. Am I correct to say that both types of mutation happen within an organisms’ DNA, mutation that may enhance the organism, and mutation that may degrade the organism?
This is absolutely correct, yes.

If this is the case, over time, wouldn’t the negative mutation reach a level where it causes so many problems the organism would not be able to maintain metabolism?
If a mutation, however small, causes problems in survival and reproduction, compared to the rest of the gene pool, then this mutation will be weeded out by natural selection.

For example, to take an extreme case, many, perhaps most, early miscarriages are caused by a bad mutation so bad that the metabolism just doesn't work. Now, obviously these spontaneously aborted embryos do not pass on their bad genes to the next generation, 'cos they're dead. Their more fortunate brothers and sisters, without killer genes, do get a chance to pass their genes on.

Do you see how it works now?

As a layman reading material written by scientists that has been published for the world to see, I believe I can rightly say, because of the their own statements, macroevolution is still only a theory and not fact.
Could you provide me with some such quotes?

In the paragraphs preceding this quote Dunkelburg uses the terminology of “possibility”, “may become”, “noteworthy possibility” and “may evolve”.

Here is the direct quote from the article:

“We can summarize these four possibilities this way:
• Previously using more parts than necessary for the function.
• The parts themselves evolve.
• Deployment of parts (gene regulation) evolves.
• New parts are created (gene duplication) and may then evolve.”

Dunkelburg acknowledges that these are only possibilities and speculation, not demonstratable facts because of the use of this terminology.
No, that is not what he is "acknowledging". You are twisting his meaning way beyond what it can bear.

If a physicist says "According to the theory of gravity, a body acting under the gravity of some other body may take a hyperbolic, parabolic, or elliptic orbit," his use of the word "may" does not mean that the theory of gravity is mere speculation. All those things are indeed possible under the theory of gravity. And all Dunkleberg's pathways to irreducible complexity are indeed possible under the theory of evolution.

These words in context, and other comments like them, in their proper context,
Here's an apposite quote from the NAS:

”The scientific consensus around evolution is overwhelming. Those opposed to the teaching of evolution sometimes use quotations from prominent scientists out of context to claim that scientists do not support evolution.” --- NATIONAL ACADEMY OF SCIENCES

And obviously you are taking Dunkleberg's words out of context. If he actually thought that evolution was mere speculation, he would have said so at some point, and creationists could quote him saying so, instead of saying "look, he used the word 'may' in an article on evolution, that means he's acknowledging that it's all speculation! hooray! we win!"

If people mean to "acknowledge" a thing, then generally they acknowledge it.

confirm to anyone reading, layman or not, that macroevolution is still speculation and theoretical.
You say these words confirm this to "anyone reading". Perhaps you should tell these people:

"Evolutionary theory ranks with Einstein's theory of relativity as one of modern science's most robust, generally accepted, thoroughly tested and broadly applicable concepts. From the standpoint of science, there is no controversy."

--- Louise Lamphere, President of the American Anthropological Association; Mary Pat Matheson, President of the American Assn of Botanical Gardens and Arboreta; Eugenie Scott, President of the American Association of Physical Anthropologists; Robert Milkey, Executive Officer of the American Astronomical Society; Barbara Joe Hoshiazaki, President of the American Fern Society; Oliver A. Ryder, President of the American Genetic Association; Larry Woodfork, President of the American Geological Institute; Marcia McNutt, President of the American Geophysical Union; Judith S. Weis, President of the American Institute of Biological Sciences; Arvind K.N. Nandedkar, President of the American Institute of Chemists; Robert H. Fakundiny, President of the American Institute of Professional Geologists; Hyman Bass, President of the American Mathematical Society; Ronald D. McPherson, Executive Director of the American Meteorological Society; John W. Fitzpatrick, President of the American Ornithologists' Union; George Trilling, President of the American Physical Society; Martin Frank, Executive Director of the American Physiological Society; Steven Slack, President of the American Phytopathological Society; Raymond D. Fowler, Chief Executive Officer American Psychological Association; Alan Kraut, Executive Director of the American Psychological Society; Catherine E. Rudder, Executive Director of the American Political Science Association; Robert D. Wells, President of the American Society for Biochemistry and Molecular Biology; Abigail Salyers, President of the American Society for Microbiology; Brooks Burr, President of the American Society of Ichthylogists & Herpetologists; Thomas H. Kunz, President of the American Society of Mammalogists; Mary Anne Holmes, President of the Association for Women Geoscientists; Linda H. Mantel, President of the Association for Women in Science; Ronald F. Abler, Executive Director of the Association of American Geographers; Vicki Cowart, President of the Association of American State Geologists; Nils Hasselmo, President of the Association of American Universities; Thomas A. Davis, President of the Assn. of College & University Biology Educators; Richard Jones, President of the Association of Earth Science Editors; Rex Upp, President of the Association of Engineering Geologists; Robert R. Haynes, President of the Association of Southeastern Biologists; Kenneth R. Ludwig, Director of the Berkeley Geochronology Center; Rodger Bybee, Executive Director of the Biological Sciences Curriculum Study; Mary Dicky Barkley, President of the Biophysical Society; Judy Jernstedt, President of the Botanical Society of America; Ken Atkins, Secretary of the Burlington-Edison Cmte. for Science Education; Austin Dacey, Director of the Center for Inquiry Institute; Blair F. Jones, President of the Clay Minerals Society; Barbara Forrest, President of the Citizens for the Advancement of Science Education; Timothy Moy, President of the Coalition for Excellence in Science and Math Education; K. Elaine Hoagland, National Executive Officer Council on Undergraduate Research; David A. Sleper, President of the Crop Science Society of America; Steve Culver, President of the Cushman Foundation for Foraminiferal Research; Pamela Matson, President of the Ecological Society of America; Larry L. Larson, President of the Entomological Society of America; Royce Engstrom, Chair of the Board of Directors of the EPSCoR Foundation; Robert R. Rich, President of the Federation of American Societies for Experimental Biology; Stephen W. Porges, President of the Federation of Behavioral, Psychological and Cognitive Sciences; Roger D. Masters, President of the Foundation for Neuroscience and Society; Kevin S. Cummings, President of the Freshwater Mollusk Conservation Society; Sharon Mosher, President of the Geological Society of America; Dennis J. Richardson, President of the Helminthological Society of Washington; Aaron M. Bauer, President of the Herpetologists' League; William Perrotti, President of the Human Anatomy & Physiology Society; Lorna G. Moore, President of the Human Biology Association; Don Johanson, Director of the Institute of Human Origins; Harry McDonald, President of the Kansas Association of Biology Teachers; Steve Lopes, President of the Kansas Citizens For Science; Margaret W. Reynolds, Executive Director of the Linguistic Society of America; Robert T. Pennock, President of the Michigan Citizens for Science; Cornelis "Kase" Klein,President of the Mineralogical Society of America; Ann Lumsden, President of the National Association of Biology Teachers; Darryl Wilkins, President of the National Association for Black Geologists & Geophysicists; Steven C. Semken, President of the National Association of Geoscience Teachers; Kevin Padian, President of the National Center for Science Education; Tom Ervin, President of the National Earth Science Teachers Association; Gerald Wheeler, Executive Director of the National Science Teachers Association; Meredith Lane, President of the Natural Science Collections Alliance; Cathleen May, President of the Newkirk Engler & May Foundation; Dave Thomas, President of the New Mexicans for Science and Reason; Marshall Berman, President (elect) of the New Mexico Academy of Science; Connie J. Manson, President of the Northwest Geological Society; Lydia Villa-Komaroff, Vice Pres. for Research Northwestern University; Gary S. Hartshorn, President of the Organization for Tropical Studies; Warren Allmon, Director of the Paleontological Research Institution; Patricia Kelley, President of the Paleontological Society; Henry R. Owen, Director of Phi Sigma: The Biological Sciences Honor Society; Charles Yarish, President of the Phycological Society of America; Barbara J. Moore, President and CEO of Shape Up America!; Robert L. Kelly, President of the Society for American Archaeology; Richard Wilk, President of the Society for Economic Anthropology; Marvalee Wake, President of the Society for Integrative and Comparative Biology; Gilbert Strang, Past-Pres. & Science Policy Chair of the Society for Industrial and Applied Mathematics; Prasanta K. Mukhopadhyay, President of the Society for Organic Petrology; Howard E. Harper, Executive Director of the Society for Sedimentary Geology; Nick Barton, President of the Society for the Study of Evolution; Deborah Sacrey, President of the Society of Independent Professional Earth Scientists; J.D. Hughes, President of the Society of Petroleum Evaluation Engineers; Lea K. Bleyman, President of the Society of Protozoologists; Elizabeth Kellogg, President of the Society of Systematic Biologists; David L. Eaton, President of the Society of Toxicology; Richard Stuckey, President of the Society of Vertebrate Paleontology; Pat White, Executive Director of the Triangle Coalition for Science and Technology Education; Richard A. Anthes, President of the University Corporation for Atmospheric Research.


It can not be both, fact and theoretical. That would be a contradiction. The definitions of fact and theory do not allow for this.
I don't know what you think the definition of "theory" is, but did it never occur to you to ask a scientist?

Theory: In science, a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses. --- NATIONAL ACADEMY OF SCIENCES

"Theory" means a logical, tested, well-supported explanation for a great variety of facts. --- NATIONAL CENTER FOR SCIENCE EDUCATION

Now, to say that something is a logical, tested, well-supported explanation for the facts in no way implies that it is not a fact. On the contrary!

You say that the words of scientists should be read in their proper context. I do so agree.

When scientists use terminology and wording like this, how can they expect the person reading what they write to take it as fact.
Let me ask you a question. Given that scientists have made it so clear what they mean --- given their precise definitions of their "terminology and wording" --- how can you possibly be confused?

ANSWER : because instead of trying to find out from scientists what scientists mean, you've been finding out what creationists say that scientists mean.

Why not try to find out from scientists what scientists think? Instead of playing a game of Chinese Whispers with non-scientists?
 
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Do you really think it's a matter of belief, though, of "believing in"?

To me, saying I "believe in" evolution is like saying I believe in DNA, or the earth going around the sun, or the refraction of light. These things aren't articles of faith to be believed in or not.

So I never say I "believe in" it. It's not something to believe in; it's something to understand (or not).

Whoops. I suppose a better way of phrasing it would be acceptance. Acceptance as fact. And understanding.

But that's how deeply ingrained it is for me. I don't question evolution. That's just how the world is.
 
But that's how deeply ingrained it is for me. I don't question evolution. That's just how the world is.

If you don't question evolution, then are you merely accepting evolution on faith? What right do you have to consider it "almost unfathomable" if someone else accepts creationism on faith since that person never questioned creationism?
 
Hi guys, I've read all the posts up to date. I am reading up on stuff you guys have shown me and some evolution stuff others have mentioned to in the past. fowlsound and Robin to be specific. I read more than one discipline (topic) at a time, so it's going to take me a while to read and digest it. I also play my guitar daily, make family time and other things come up, so it could take quite a long while before I could ever offer an educated debate on this subject.

I am not going to post in this thread for now because I don’t know enough on about this topic to keep up with you guys. I also don't have any good or educated questions to ask at this time; and I get shot down in flames for any comment I make. :) I will keep reading this thread if you guys keep it going.

Dr Adequate I specifically want to thank you for taking the time to give me detailed posts that demand serious consideration. DogDoctor, SuperCoolGuy, drkitten, Paul C. Anagnostopoulos, and all the others who I have not mentioned, thank you for your thoughtful input.

Smart Cookie, if you are interested, I would answer questions addressed to me about how I got to what I believe today, specifically why I will not except evolution as a plausible explanation for homo sapiens. It could be a very quick conversation, or develop over time. I'm ok with either as long as your are ok that it might take a few day for a response if things are busy. I don’t know if a private conversation, or a public thread that would allow anyone to read and converse within would be best. I don’t know if the public thread would interest any others. I have learned not to stand up in my pulpit and preach here on JREF, so any answers I give that have scriptural references, and/or theological concepts, would be kept to explanations that are strictly relative to what is being discussed so you, and others if it is a public conversation, can understand where I am coming from.

-Dude
 
If you don't question evolution, then are you merely accepting evolution on faith? What right do you have to consider it "almost unfathomable" if someone else accepts creationism on faith since that person never questioned creationism?


No, I don't accept evolution merely on faith. Everything I've ever learned supports the theory. I have seen nothing or read nothing that disproves it, or anything that even casts doubt upon it. Just as most people don't question the laws of gravity, or that the earth is round, or that the planets revolve around the sun.

If tomorrow, I woke up and the sun was 2 hours late rising, and then it blasted across the sky in yellow, pink and green streaks, then set after only 4 hours - well, then, I guess we'd all have to rethink some of our most commonly accepted "beliefs" about how the world is.


Which is why, if someone else believes that all life on this planet did not evolve from single-celled organisms, and that we humans share a common ancestor with the great apes, then I have a sincere interest in HOW that person's beliefs came about.
 
Christian Dude:

Thanks. I've started a new thread. Hopefully this link works. (First time trying this).

Meet you there, I hope. I've already got a couple of questions started.

SC
 
To clarify my thoughts, it is a two fold reason I can’t accept macroevolution. The first reason, which I will phrase as a question, will probably show my ignorance in genetics and biology, but here goes. Am I correct to say that both types of mutation happen within an organisms’ DNA, mutation that may enhance the organism, and mutation that may degrade the organism? If this is the case, over time, wouldn’t the negative mutation reach a level where it causes so many problems the organism would not be able to maintain metabolism?

This is where "natural selection" comes in. By and large, negative mutations do not accumulate, because they tend to kill off the organisms where they occur. By and large, positive mutations do accumulate, for precisely the opposite reason (they tend to make the organism concerned more capable of reproducing). This is, in fact, the very definition of positive and negative mutation.

Mutations, however, are largely independent. Let's say that I have four mutations -- two positive, and two negative (but somehow I'm lucky enough not to have those two mutations kill me). Each of my children will have a 50/50 chance of expressing each one -- so if I have four children, the "odds" are that one will have both of my negative mutations (and probably die childless), two will have one each of my negative mutations (and have relatively fewer children), and one will have none of them and have lots of children. So if you look at my grandchildren, they will be much "cleaner" genetically. Only one or two generations will have dropped the average number of negative mutations per person. A similar argument will show that my positive mutations will be overrepresented in my grandchildren.
 
From the article written by Pete Dunkelburg found at this link: http://www.talkdesign.org/faqs/icdmyst/ICDmyst.html#howmight

There is a summery given after the four points in the summery have been discussed in greater detail in a preceding paragraph in the article. In the paragraphs preceding this quote Dunkelburg uses the terminology of “possibility”, “may become”, “noteworthy possibility” and “may evolve”.

Here is the direct quote from the article:

“We can summarize these four possibilities this way:
• Previously using more parts than necessary for the function.
• The parts themselves evolve.
• Deployment of parts (gene regulation) evolves.
• New parts are created (gene duplication) and may then evolve.”

Dunkelburg acknowledges that these are only possibilities and speculation, not demonstratable facts[...]

I'm afraid that you're quoting out of context here. If you will permit me :

How might an IC system evolve? One possibility is that in the past, the function may have been done with more parts than are strictly necessary. Then an 'extra' part may be lost, leaving an IC system. Or the parts may become co-adapted to perform even better, but become unable to perform the specified function at all without each other. This brings up another point: the parts themselves evolve. Behe's parts are usually whole proteins or even larger. A protein is made up of hundreds of smaller parts called amino acids, of which twenty different kinds may be used. Evolution usually changes these one by one. Another important fact is that DNA evolves. What difference does this make, compared to saying that proteins evolve? If you think about it, each protein that your body makes is made at just the right time, in just the right place and in just the right amount. These details are also coded in your DNA (with timing and quantity susceptible to outside influences) and so are subject to mutation and evolution. For our purposes we can refer to this as deployment of parts. When a protein is deployed out of its usual context, it may be co-opted for a different function. A fourth noteworthy possibility is that brand new parts are created. This typically comes from gene duplication, which is well known in biology. At first the duplicate genes make the same protein, but these genes may evolve to make slightly different proteins that depend on each other.

We can summarize these four possibilities this way:

* Previously using more parts than necessary for the function.
* The parts themselves evolve.
* Deployment of parts (gene regulation) evolves.
* New parts are created (gene duplication) and may then evolve.

The first of these only comes up if we are looking for IC. The others are the major forms of molecular evolution observed by biologists, phrased in terms of parts. They can lead to new protein functions, sometimes slowly and sometimes, especially when parts are redeployed, abruptly. Gene duplication and changes in protein deployment may introduce a new protein 'part' into a system. Then the parts may coevolve to do something better, but in a codependent manner so that all are required, without further change in the number of parts. But what happens in nature?


Let me take Dr. Dunkelberg's statement apart piece by piece:

How might an IC system evolve?

Notice that, out of the box, we're discussing a hypothetical and ill-defined system -- it's hardly surprising if the discussion is couched in hypothetical terms. Since the term "IC" is not widely recognized or understood among biologists -- and in fact, among those who understand the term, many believe that no systems are actually "IC" in the Behe sense, partly because his definition will not stand up to rigid scrutinty. But for discussion, let's give a charitable interpretation:

Specifically:
One possibility is that in the past, the function may have been done with more parts than are strictly necessary. Then an 'extra' part may be lost, leaving an IC system. Or the parts may become co-adapted to perform even better, but become unable to perform the specified function at all without each other.

If you take Behe at a strict reading of his words, a system such as this, if it existed, would be IC.

But....
This brings up another point: the parts themselves evolve. Behe's parts are usually whole proteins or even larger.

We have to be careful, because the term "part" admits of several interpretations. Let's do this by case analysis.

It might mean "protein": [QUOTE[ A protein is made up of hundreds of smaller parts called amino acids, of which twenty different kinds may be used. Evolution usually changes these one by one. [/QUOTE]

It might mean "DNA"
Another important fact is that DNA evolves. What difference does this make, compared to saying that proteins evolve? If you think about it, each protein that your body makes is made at just the right time, in just the right place and in just the right amount. These details are also coded in your DNA (with timing and quantity susceptible to outside influences) and so are subject to mutation and evolution. For our purposes we can refer to this as deployment of parts.

It might mean "duplicated and coopted protein" :
When a protein is deployed out of its usual context, it may be co-opted for a different function.

... or it might mean "duplicated and adjusted protein" :
A fourth noteworthy possibility is that brand new parts are created. This typically comes from gene duplication, which is well known in biology. At first the duplicate genes make the same protein, but these genes may evolve to make slightly different proteins that depend on each other.


So these for "possibilities" here are like the various "possibilities" for the solution of an equation; depending upon the exact equation, we might have zero, one, or many soultions, and an intelligent discussion needs to treat each of them as a possibility.

The case analysis resummarized:
We can summarize these four possibilities this way:

* Previously using more parts than necessary for the function.
* The parts themselves evolve.
* Deployment of parts (gene regulation) evolves.
* New parts are created (gene duplication) and may then evolve.


Now, let's treat these possibilities one-by-one:

The first of these only comes up if we are looking for IC.

well, more accurately, one and then the last group of three:

The others are the major forms of molecular evolution observed by biologists, phrased in terms of parts.

We've actually seen these type of events, and we know what they can do. In fact, they have been observed to do several different things:

We've seen the gradual emergence of new protein functions:
They can lead to new protein functions, sometimes slowly

We've seen abrupt emergence of new protein functions:

and sometimes, especially when parts are redeployed, abruptly.

We've seen new proteins created :
Gene duplication and changes in protein deployment may introduce a new protein 'part' into a system.

and we've seen proteins coevolve to chane the "new" proteins :
Then the parts may coevolve to do something better, but in a codependent manner so that all are required, without further change in the number of parts.

In other words, for a hypothetical IC system to come into existence, we can look more closely at the definition of IC, and figure out that there are four different meanings we can attach to "IC," with four corresponding types of genetic events. We have also independently seen each of these four kinds of events, so we know that these described events are possible. Any argument that it is impossible for a hypothetical IC system to evolve is therefore deeply flawed.

But now, let's look at some specific examples of systems that have been considered IC. When we talk about a non-IC system, we should be able to make much clearer statements about how they did arise, because we're not longer discussing the abstract and hypothetical. And so, on to nature:

But what happens in nature?


The rest of the article discusses seven specific examples of systems proposed as IC. Quoting from one example:

All three enzymes are required, so we have IC. How could this IC system have evolved? First of all, bacteria of this type could already metabolize some milder chlorophenols which occur naturally ("could" here is meant in the sense of capacity, not hypothesis -- DrK.) in small amounts. In fact the first and third enzymes were used for this. As a result the cell is triggered to produce them in the presence of chlorophenols The second enzyme (called PcpC) is the most interesting one; the cell produces it in sufficient quantity to be effective all the time instead of just when it is needed in its normal metabolic role. Thanks to this unusual situation PcpC is available when it is needed to help eat PCP.

The inefficient regulation of PcpC is evidently the key to the whole process. So far as biologists can tell, a recent mutation that changed the deployment of this enzyme is what made PCP degradation possible for this bacterium.

Notice the tone -- we're no longer discussing hypothetical situations, but one we understand, and the hedges -- aside from the omnipresent "as far as biologists can tell," which also applies to statements like "humans have two sexes" and "lions eat meat" -- have disappeared.

Basically, you (like your fellow creationists) are taking hedge words out of their proper context and presenting them as though they represented genuine confusion. For further examples, see any recent creationist discussion on the evolution of the eye. There's a wonderful quote from Darwin himself that creationists seem only to read half of.... (it's on the SkepticWiki, if you like.)
 
Man you guys can be smart. I'm not sure your right, but I am sure you are a smart group. I'm still here in my crash site on the ground burning away with smoke wafting from my head.
 
Man you guys can be smart. I'm not sure your right, but I am sure you are a smart group. I'm still here in my crash site on the ground burning away with smoke wafting from my head.

While there are some smart people around here, don't sell yourself short just yet.

New ideas always seem tougher to grasp than they really are when you first tackle them. Once you have waded through enough to get a 'mental scaffold' of the core ideas, it will get much easier. Once that mental scaffold is in place, you'll have a place to mentally file further details as you get them.
 
Man you guys can be smart. I'm not sure your right, but I am sure you are a smart group. I'm still here in my crash site on the ground burning away with smoke wafting from my head.

Nah,.... there's just a lot of resources out there to draw from. "Shoulders of giants," and all that.

Really, the key thing is just to get the "rules of evidence" right -- and then to be prepared to be surprised if the evidence doesn't turn out the way you would have predicted it in your armchair.
 
The weird thing about evolution is that it is based on an extremely simple premise, but its consequences can be so complicated. If you get the premise (differential reproductive success), everything else falls into place by pure logic.

Despite the fact that a large number of people find it hard to grasp, evolution is in fact very very simple.
 
Mojo said:
Well, it's not really that they find the concept hard to grasp; more that they find it hard to accept.
I don't know. If they grasp it, then they certainly aren't very good at explaining it.

~~ Paul
 
No, as far as I can tell, they don't accept it because they don't understand it. If they really understood evolution, they would be able to see that it is an inevitable aspect of life, and therefore as far beyond "acceptance" as the sun.

However, there is the aspect that some of them at least choose not to understand it. Or choose to not understand it.
 

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