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Evolution Not Random

I said the way celestial mechanics, fluid dynamics, and ballistics are most commonly and completely described is deterministic. Last time I checked, the Navier-Stokes equations were deterministic, as were Kepler's Laws and Newton's Laws.

So this is all about the way we describe things, and not the way they actually are? Fine - if you want to claim that some things are sometimes described by a deterministic approximate model, and evolution is sometimes described by a stochastic approximate model, l agree. If you read my posts above, you'll see I was talking about physical, real processes - like evolution and celestial orbits - not abstract mathematical models.

And of course the computers generating the "random" numbers for those stochastic models are actually doing so deterministically...
 
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First, lets look about that "how far out" your prediction is determined. You have to account for not knowing in advance the conditions which will exist. Is a car factory randomly producing cars because you cannot predict what the designers will design for next year's model? Is the car factory randomly producing cars because there could be a change in demand which will require a change in production volume? The owner could sell and the new owner could make changes. Does that make the car factory randomly producing cars?

I feel compelled to comment, because I was thinking about using this very example as an illustration. As you might guess, I was going to make the opposite point.

You see, I work in car factories. I go around and help them try and make more cars, faster. In my case, I write software for some of the machines that put together the cars.

One of the most common errors you see in car factory design is that the designers failed to account for the randomness in the car assembly process. Since the process is (allegedly) deterministic, they build it a certain way with those assumptions. It turns out, of course, that it is not deterministic. Machines break, at random intervals. Most car factories produce more than one sort of car, and they anticipate a certain volume of sales of cars, and then they design there plant to build cars at that rate, but the orders don't arrive at a uniform rate. Randomness causes clusters of orders, and lines end up slowing down because there aren't enough parts to deal with all the orders for one specific type of car.

Well designed car factories account for all the randomness. They predict in advance such things as spare parts inventory, overtime budgets, floor space needed for work in progress. All of these things must be calculated using random numbers, because if the stats are wrong, the predictions are wrong, and you don't make cars efficiently. I have been in car plants and listened to people blame our equipment for all sorts of line slowdowns when the real problem was that their calculations were based on assumptions of uniformity, without randomness in the system. It's a huge, huge, topic in the auto industry, in part because it is ofen done so poorly.

The car factory is, in fact, randomly assembling cars, and I've seen some really poorly built car factories that didn't work because the builders failed to design that in.


If the paint sprayer in the car factory is almost but not quite completely exact from car to car, are those cars randomly painted? If the cars' weights differ by some tiny fraction of a gram does that mean the cars have random weights? If a machine part gets slightly more worn with each car making each car slightly different, and every now and then the machine part gets replaced, think of the random variation that would cause in the cars.

Well, I can say that if you studied probability and statistics in college, and can't find a job in the insurance industry, the automobile industry is a good next best bet. I said that a lot of car factories failed to take into account the randomness, but even the bad ones know it's there. We hire lots of mathemeticians. The primary purpose of most of my software is to determine how much randomness is found in these sorts of processes.

I assure you that I spend a great deal of time thinking about "exactly" how much random variation that causes in cars, and I assure you that "random" is the "exact" term that I use.

But how many people would say the cars were randomly produced because of the minute randomness of the paint application? It would be absurd to do so.

But, I assure you, the pay is not bad. I wish it were a bit more, but it does put bread on my table.

I'm being a bit flippant, but I am not exaggerating. I really do make my living by saying that cars are randomly produced, and then quantifying that randomness. I work in the body shop these days, but when I moved to Detroit, my first job was in a paint booth, doing exactly what you are describing as absurd. I'm not rich, but I can afford private school tuition for my son. (Barely)

To call the manufacturing processes random because of molecular level differences would be ludicrous and useless.

But, as I said, the pay is not so bad.

Seriously, we do call manufacturing processes random, and we do use random numbers to describe them, and a great deal more time is spent on the "random" parts of car manufacturing than on the "deterministic" parts. What you describe as "ludicrous and useless" is how I make my living.

How would you decide what best described that car production as random or nonrandom? What criteria would you use?
The size of the paycheck. Random is bigger.
 
So this is all about the way we describe things, and not the way they actually are? Fine - if you want to claim that some things are sometimes described by a deterministic approximate model, and evolution is sometimes described by a stochastic approximate model, l agree. If you read my posts above, you'll see I was talking about physical, real processes - like evolution and celestial orbits - not abstract mathematical models.

So the equations for the N-body system in which the only force acting upon the masses is gravity does not fully describe celestial mechanics?

I ask because I thought it did.

And of course the computers generating the "random" numbers for those stochastic models are actually doing so deterministically...

Except when the random numbers are generated from the shot noise of a transistor in the computer.
 
So the equations for the N-body system in which the only force acting upon the masses is gravity does not fully describe celestial mechanics?

I ask because I thought it did.
This is how I think of it: That theory describes celestial mechanics in a fictional universe where stars and planets are classical point particles. It doesn't describe celestial mechanics in our universe. It's still a good theory because its predictions agree with experiments to a very high degree, which is the best we can ever hope for from any theory. No theory that exists today (and probably no theory that ever will exist) really describes our universe.

(Most people would just say that the theories are approximate descriptions of our universe. That really means the same thing as what I said. I just think that my way of saying it is better).

A more "real-world" and less philosophical argument against what you said is that even the decay of a single uranium nucleus in a planet is enough to cause the planet to deviate slightly from its path. So the classical equation of motion can't possibly fully describe the system.
 
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By focusing on what you cannot predict...
(and about a page more)
You make a good argument against calling evolution "random", but nothing you have said is a reason to call it "deterministic", which is what I was talking about.

You want to call the process of evolution random...
OK, at this point I have to ask: Have you read any of my posts?

Take a look at e.g. #342, #348, #367 or #371. Does it look like I think it would be a good idea to call evolution random?

Describing the entire process as nonrandom because physical features of predator and prey are predictable is a better description of the actual overall process.
Better maybe, but not good.
 
A physical system is deterministic if and only if complete knowledge of its state at a given time is sufficient to determine its state at a later time.
How does your knowledge of the event change the event in any way ? Whether you have complete knowledge of it doesn't change the outcome.
I'm not sure what you're asking here or why. My knowledge won't change anything.
Yes, that is exactly what I meant. Whether we CAN know everything is irrelevant to the functioning of the thing itself.
I really don't get it. I defined "deterministic", and your reply is to say that. What does that have to do with what I said?

Another thing I don't get is why vBulletin doesn't do quotes within quotes (when we hit the quote button). Yes there would be more text in a lot of posts, but it would make discussions soooooo much easier. Now vBulletin discussions often look like this:

1. A presents argument.
2. B presents counter argument.
3. A explains what he really meant in the first post.
4. B makes a weird reply about a completely different matter, because he doesn't remember what they were talking about.
 
Originally Posted by Beth
Let me second this. Jimbob is correct. Mijo's insisting that by the proper definitions of 'random' and 'deterministic', evolution is random. It is.
What's a "proper" definition? The one most people mean when they use the word? The one listed first in most dictionaries? Because if so, evolution is not random.

I think you meant to say "technical" (or maybe "the definition I'm used to personally"), but even then you really have to specify further what you mean. There is nothing in the physical world that is not random in the sense you seem to be using the word, making "evolution is random" a tautology.

I would argue that if the ransdomness has a significant* effect, then you need to invoke randomness.

With evolution over geological timescales, random events (e.g. asteroid strikes) alter the course of evolution so significantly that the selective pressures alter randomly.

In an intermediate term (hundreds of generations to thousands of years maybe), I would say that it is like a roulette game, each outcome might be random, but over the long term the house would "win". The most likely winning margin is still best understood with a probabilistic treatment, but it would be acceptable to say simply that the house "would win in the long term".

*this depends on what you want to do with the analysis
 
What are you saying then? You seemed to imply that inputs were not important.

Yes. They are.

They determine the output.

What they don't do is determine the function itself.

Yoy also seemed to imply that the process wasn't important, that only left the outputs...

I do wonder if anything I write is interpreted by you in any way similiar to how I rendered it.

Is this your argument that if there are two fledglings in a nest, and one is eaten it was because that fledgling was by definition less well adapted to its environment?

No jimbob - this is your misunderstanding.

My argument is simply that in a game of Chess one's strategy does not usually rely on all the pawns surviving to the end of the game.

Would you argue that one pawn is less well adpated than another? Would you argue that which pawns last to the end of the game is random?

Is Chess a random game or not?

What else dop you mean, and why is it a better treatment than a probabilistic treatment of natural selection. I have even given you the distribution and typical parameters.

And yet again you demonstrate the total failure to disconnect model from the thing itself.

Are you going to explain that comment?

Would there be any point?

How do you get any useful numbers without a probabilistic treatment?

I don't know jimbob - how can one play Chess without a probabilistic treatment?

Apparantly that wouldn't be useful at all.
 
No, the way we describe these systems is not random though. What you fail to recognize is that if you repeat calculations with the same degree of precision with data with the same degree of precision in a deterministic system, you will always get the same result. This is simply not the case not the case with a random system. You will obtain different results with with the same precision data and calculations.

Mijo, you can't have it both ways. Either evolution AND those other systems are random because they both have random components, or neither are.
 
Look my point is that, at mesoscopic scales where matter consist of >1010 particles, the quantum level randomness averages out, giving the appearance of deterministically predictable systems. Similarly, when a population is large that the inverse of the mutation rate, the random effects of drift, mutation, and selection averages, giving the appearance of deterministic behvior in evolution.

So, now evolution is NOT random ?
 
I really don't get it. I defined "deterministic", and your reply is to say that. What does that have to do with what I said?

It might be because we're using different definition of deterministic. I was using "deterministic" to mean "current state determined wholly by the previous state", though following my discussion with Sol Invictus this seems somewhat irrelevant.

Another thing I don't get is why vBulletin doesn't do quotes within quotes (when we hit the quote button). Yes there would be more text in a lot of posts, but it would make discussions soooooo much easier.

I agree. And the odd thing is, it works for private messages !
 
Chess is deterministic

Selection is probabilistic

a game of monopoly is probabilisic
 
Cyborg:

Over the last hundred million years, would you say that random events have affected the environment to such an extent as to significantly affect the "path" of evolution?
 
So the equations for the N-body system in which the only force acting upon the masses is gravity does not fully describe celestial mechanics?

I ask because I thought it did.

Of course it doesn't. Gravity is not the only force. Even if it was, it's not deterministic (see above). Even if it was, another body could come flying in. Or one of the bodies could fall into a black hole which formed from a quantum fluctuation. Or intelligent life could evolve somewhere and blow one of those N bodies out of the sky with a nuclear weapon....

Why don't you give us an example of a real-world process that is not random according to your definition?

Still no answer to this question, then?
 
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I would argue that if the ransdomness has a significant* effect, then you need to invoke randomness.

I certainly agree with with that. Going back to using the ordinary meanings of words for a moment, evolution has an essential component that is random (mutations), and an essential component that is not (selection). But you really cannot capture that just by saying "it's random" or "it's not random".
 
Originally Posted by jimbob
I would argue that if the ransdomness has a significant* effect, then you need to invoke randomness.
I certainly agree with with that. Going back to using the ordinary meanings of words for a moment, evolution has an essential component that is random (mutations), and an essential component that is not (selection). But you really cannot capture that just by saying "it's random" or "it's not random".

Yes. I would go slghtly further:
But you really cannot capture that just by saying "it's random" or "it's not random"

Saying it is non-random is wrong, as is saying it is random, without explaining the technicalities of what you mean by random.

Saying it is non-haphazard would be correct. Behe is pretending that random means haphazard, which it does in everyday speech, but the meaning is subtly different in science, as you have pointed out...

If we are discussing the origins of humanity, then from the first stromatolites, I would say that there have been many highly significant events that have altered the path of the evolution of life. That is not to say the evolutionary route can't be explained scientifically, but it had not been predetermined (ETA: i.e. was not inevitable; that adaptations would have occured was, what they were wasn't).

There could even be an argument for random events being significant as recently as the Pliocene or even into the Pleistocene.
 
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I certainly agree with with that. Going back to using the ordinary meanings of words for a moment, evolution has an essential component that is random (mutations), and an essential component that is not (selection). But you really cannot capture that just by saying "it's random" or "it's not random".

This is one of the most common comments regarding randomness and evolution, and I want to make my own comment. It seems to me that when you compare mutations and selection, you are comparing apples and oranges.

Mutations are very real events. They are concrete, and they occur at a point in time. When the organism has a gene that was not present in a parent (or other gene donor, for simplicity I'm going to say that organisms have parents) a mutation has occurred. It's fairly simple. Now that we know that DNA is the source of genes (mostly) we can even talk about causes of mutations, e.g. radiation that splits DNA in a place it wasn't split before.

So when does "natural selection" occur? When an organism is born? Mates? Dies? It isn't really an "event". It's realy an analysis performed on a random series of events. (BTW, a sequence of random number is what mathematicians call a "random process". You can look it up if you like.) When we analyse the outcome of a whole bunch of random events, and note that some events occurred more often than others, we say the ones that happened were "selected".

Sometimes I have insisted that natural selection is, in fact, random. Maybe that is a poor choice of words. What I mean by that is that the events that are all part of the process are random. An organism may live or die, and its genes influence the probability of those outcomes, but its survival or lack of same can be predicted only in a probabilistic sense, i.e. it's survival is, by definition, random. The overall series of events that influence species survival and change of traits within a species is, by definition, a random process. Of course, random processes can have predictable outcomes. Otherwise, I wouldn't have a job, but they are called random processes nonetheless.


So when we say, "mutations are random, selection is not", we are really mixing up our terms. In one case (mutations) we are saying that a random event may occur. In the other case (selection) we are talking about the final result of a long series of events. We aren't really talking about two "components" of a process. We are talking about the events that are part of a process, vs. the outcome of a process.
 

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