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Evolution a hoax?

Randman, if there's so much science coming from ID, why can't you show any examples?

ETA: That last post snuck in before I saw it. But what does it have to do with ID? It's geology, not biology.

I mentioned ID and creationism and actually non-Darwinian evos as well. All do significant research and publish. You guys just don't want to admit it.

Just look at the recent Axe papers. He explicitly used ID and published. Some evos went around and lied and said it had nothing to do with ID and even suggested they had questioned him about that as if he agreed, and he publicly refuted them, saying not only was the work based on ID, funded by ID research institute, but he had explicitly told the same media sources of that.

In other words, they were dissembling to suggest Axe agreed the work wasn't based on Intelligent Design and supportive of that.
 
It has yielded fruit and it's not the only place Intelligent Design is used. You are simply making stuff up.
No, it hasn't.

I'm a paleontological resources monitor. I make my living by knowing where fossils are, and pulling them out of the ground. I spend a LOT of my time brousing various journals, looking for new information about fossil locations, fossil preservation, etc. I have yet to see any Creationist or ID research in my searches, with two exceptions (neither one useful). This surprises me--I mean, Deluge Geology should at least provide a theoretical framework for correlation, which is what I mostly rely on, yet no one seems to have bothered. And Deluge Geology should be FANTASTIC in dealing with taphonomy, yet Creationists are strangely silent there. In fact, they are silent about every PRACTICAL point of paleontology. The entire paleontological resources consulting industry is testiment to that.

Where, exactly, are Creationism or ID providing major contributions to the field? I ask out of professional interest--if they are, than my entire industry is doing something wrong.

Here is just one example of a YEC doing original research and publishing his findings which led to a greater understanding of sedimentation.
You don't know much about sedimentology. Nothing in this is new. Plus, he fails to understand the difference between crossbedding within a unit, and the deposition of units. And modern basin understanding. And isochrons, and...well, most of the science. This isn't a ground-breaking paper, it's the type of observations you make with a flume as an undergrad. :rolleyes:

phunk said:
ETA: That last post snuck in before I saw it. But what does it have to do with ID? It's geology, not biology.
Don't worry, it's not a significant contribution. This stuff can be found in any introductory sedimentology textbook, though admitedly without the misunderstandings that arise from a flawed theoretical framework.
 
Dr. Axe wrote back the following, which the New Scientist declined to quote:

I have in fact confirmed that these papers add to the evidence for ID. I concluded in the 2000 JMB paper that enzymatic catalysis entails "severe sequence constraints". The more severe these constraints are, the less likely it is that they can be met by chance. So, yes, that finding is very relevant to the question of the adequacy of chance, which is very relevant to the case for design. In the 2004 paper I reported experimental data used to put a number on the rarity of sequences expected to form working enzymes. The reported figure is less than one in a trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion. Again, yes, this finding does seem to call into question the adequacy of chance, and that certainly adds to the case for intelligent design.
Hmm. The author of the articles in question agrees with Dembski and Meyer that his research "adds to the case for intelligent design." But the New Scientist didn't think that fact important enough to report to its readers.

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2007/01/journal_of_molecular_biology_a003046.html
 
I concluded in the 2000 JMB paper that enzymatic catalysis entails "severe sequence constraints".
Irreducible complexity has been shown to be deeply flawed.

The more severe these constraints are, the less likely it is that they can be met by chance.
Good thing no serious scientist has ever said that evolution occurs by chance.

So, yes, that finding is very relevant to the question of the adequacy of chance, which is very relevant to the case for design.
Pure Straw Man.

In the 2004 paper I reported experimental data used to put a number on the rarity of sequences expected to form working enzymes. The reported figure is less than one in a trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion.
This is likely based on the flawed premise that evolution is random.

Again, yes, this finding does seem to call into question the adequacy of chance, and that certainly adds to the case for intelligent design.
Again, pure Straw Man.

Seems like typical ID trickery to me.
 
If you haven't seen any actual science, that's because you refuse to accept reality. Ton of actual science, published papers, etc,.....have been done and it's not the only place.
Give me some good examples.

Just the examples of research on sedimentation, on whale fossils and sediments and a whole host of other work proves you wrong.
What findings related to sedimentation and whale fossils show us the mechanisms theorized by Intelligent Design? What aspects about them can not be accounted for by evolution or other natural processes?


As far as your examples, I'll take a look but bet NeoDarwinism didn't contribute squat.
Bickering about "NeoDarwinism" is a red herring.

The Theory of Evolution was used as a framework in all of my examples.

Wowbagger, just as I thought.
You are not refuting the evidence in the pages I cited. Nor their importance and value. You are merely dismissing them as not relevant to evolution, even though most of them clearly spell out how evolution is relevant.

My main point is that scientists, who wish to solve real problems, do not have time to deal with unproductive theories. Evolution, in spite of its foibles, is still a LOT more reliable that Intelligent Design. Intelligent Design offers nothing.

Can you counter that point of mine?

1. The first study has absolutely nothing to do with macroevolution but discusses one single species' "evolution". So you are wrong there.
It has everything to do with macroevolution! How do you think they traced the sexual selection through various species, to arrive at what was going on with the Kakapos?

What do you think attributes to the success of this program, if it was not evolutionary thinking?

What can I.D. contribute to the conservation of the Kakapos?

2. 2nd study has absolutely 0 results for success so far. It's merely speculative and so you are wrong there.
Please tell me how Intelligent Design can improve upon what was discussed in that document?
Remember: Your answer must be less speculative than mine, if you are going to win this argument.

What can Intelligent Design contribute to managing the diversification of species?

Remember also: This plan was devised through evolutionary thinking. If it is wrong or distorted, it should have no hope of success. What specific warnings would Intelligent Design offer them, as they proceed?

3. 3rd study deals with viral evolution, not macroevolution. So you're wrong there as well. It's funny but how did I know none of your studies would show macroevolution?
Technically, I suppose it deals with what might be called micro-evolutionary factors. But, you are not refuting the evidence nor its value.

If Intelligent Design is superior science, it should be able to tell us a lot more, a lot sooner, than evolution did.

Has anyone located the original Design plans for viruses?

4. Same with the 4th, just as I expected. No macroevolution whatsoever. Hey, people have been breeding dogs for a few thousand years based on microevolutionary principles (you know basic heredity). So how could they do that without the theory of evolution? The answer is none of this requires or is even assisted by NeoDarwinism.

Again, you are not refuting the importance of this work, which coincides with the general framework of evolutionary thinking. You are waving it away as merely "breeding".

What can Intelligent Design add to the conversation?

5. Same sort of thing. You get the same results of knowing where the pines used to be from fossils whether you accept or base anything on macroevolution or not.

If Intelligent Design can add anything to that subject, let me know.

But, so far, those who are truly interested in pine cones are gaining their knowledge through evolutionary thinking.

So you've come up with nada.

If what I provided was "nada", then how come they are all making such an impact on our world? Does the survival of the Kakapo sound like "nada" to you? What about the recorded differences in pine fossils?

Where, exactly, did the Intelligent Designer intervene in any of these things?

Where, in principle, would He (assuming it is a He) need to do so?

Scientists are no longer interested in finding out if the Theory of Evolution is accurate or not. That has long since been answered. Today, we are far, far into making use of that Theory to solve problems.

Intelligent Design has a LOT of catching up to do, if it is going to make a dent. So, get started!
 
skeptic, evos start with the conclusion every time.

I should mention one important thing: "Evos" start with a framework, which they then use to conduct other studies.

If someone did a study of frog parasites, and found that they are closely related, through genes, to ones that used to target goldfish, then the conclusion is "the genes of the frog parasites seem to be related to those of older goldfish parasites".

The conclusion is NOT "therefore evolution is true!"

That would be a stupid conclusion to make, because that was not what the study was designed to find.

This is true even though the Theory of Evolution helped shape what to study.

You see the difference?
 
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I have seen lots of content from the Discovery Institute. I have yet to see any actual science coming from their "theories".

Perhaps you can point me to some good examples of their work?

I can point you to lots of examples where the science Evolution has been put to good use:

Macro-evolutionary thinking saving the Kakapo, an endangered species:
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/news/060401_kakapo

More general information on the subject of conservation:
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/news/070601_hotspotstrategy

Understanding Avian Flu through evolution:
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/news/051115_birdflu

Here's how evolution is helping us keep the Fire Ant population in check:
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/fireants_01
(this is a multi-page presentation)

Conserving the Monterey Pine through investigating its ancestral history:
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/montereypines_01

And there's LOTs more where that came from!

If Evolution all sooo distorted, then tell me why it seems to be so gosh-darned reliable, in so many different ways?

Nice post I am sorry it fell on blind eyes.
 
Nice post I am sorry it fell on blind eyes.

The question remains: What form of blindness are some of these creationists suffering from?

1. Are they folks who just don't care about innovative or productive science work? Perhaps it is simply not part of their own responsibility to get any science work done, so they can afford to linger in the comfort of creationist materials.

OR

2. They do care about such things. But, they were misinformed about what constitutes productivity in science. It is too easy to neglect the empirical nature of its discipline, when one is convinced easy answers are sufficient.

Either way, the science will be there for them. That is its gift, and its curse.
 
Wowbagger, none of the examples you gave were based on macroevolutionary theory. There was no macroevolution at all. You just pulled the typical evo deception. Say heritable change is macroevolution, basically saying stuff like breeding which has been done for thousands of years and predates evo theory, and then say these principles of breeding are based on evo theory, that macroevolutionary theory is what enabled them to work, etc,....it's all hogwash. None of your examples require or are even assisted by evo theory in the slightest except the one example of a study which has no results at all, just a proposal. In other words, all of the science you mentioned works just as well if you apply creationism, ID, or anything else, or frankly nothing at all but basic microevolutionary principles; things evolve. So what? That's not the whole theory of evolution and no one denies things evolve. Doesn't mean they all evolved from a common, original cell.
 
As far as ID or creationism, they are a framework like evo theory and they work. Deal with it.

On sedimentation, for example, the creationist model for lower layers not always and perhaps rarely being laid down gradually has astonishingly been shown to be correct, defying what one would expect. I doubt you will take the time to study it and so just demand I waste a lot of time showing it to you in more depth and you hand-waive it away. I already gave you the specific examples, and you then acted as if I had not and asked again how creationism applies as if flood geology and catastrophic geological frameworks had not been applied but they have.

You just don't like the answer.
 
What am I making up? Got some papers to show? I'm all eyes.

Been posted ad nauseum before here. Look them up. I referenced some, such as Axe's papers and the French guy's stuff on sedimentation. I've pointed you i the direction. It's up to you whether you want to learn.
 
If what I provided was "nada", then how come they are all making such an impact on our world? Does the survival of the Kakapo sound like "nada" to you? What about the recorded differences in pine fossils?

Conservation efforts would be there with or without belief in neodarwinism. Sorry but trying to say macroevo theory is making an impact in these areas is downright silly.

But, so far, those who are truly interested in pine cones are gaining their knowledge through evolutionary thinking.

More absolute claptrap. You assume non-evos are not interested in such things. Just another backhanded smear. Also, they are not getting any helpful knowledge from macroevo theory.
 
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From that paper:
The more severe these constraints are, the less likely it is that they can be met by chance. So, yes, that finding is very relevant to the question of the adequacy of chance, which is very relevant to the case for design.
It seems poor Dr. Axe is not familiar with what evolutionary theory entails. It does NOT entail chance!

The Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection entails an algorithm. Selection is not a left to chance, but is shaped by the fitness landscape.

The findings of Dr. Axe are, at best, ambiguous to their origins, because they are not suggestive of any particular mechanisms by which the pathways he was examining could emerge. Therefore, it is a poor choice for supporting the "power" of Intelligent Design.

Do you have any papers that can demonstrate some characteristics of the design process, tools, or the Designer itself, that we can base predictions of more findings on? Perhaps something that would suggest dramatic innovations in medical science? (If we had some of the Designer's original engineering specs, that would work wonders for humanity!!)

If you cannot do that, perhaps you have an insightful test to tell if we were all intentionally designed by the Designer, or if we are merely living in His dust bin? How do you know that life on Earth is not entirely made of the Designer's imperfect rejects, that he threw away, while creating better life forms for another planet?

Science is an empirical beast. We want empirical answers to its core questions.

Wowbagger, none of the examples you gave were based on macroevolutionary theory.
Not all of them. But, for the Kakapo example, it is relevant to a certain degree. I can explain why,

But, first a question for you: Do you believe that all or most bird species evolved from a single 'kind' of bird that was Designed? Or, are some birds from a different 'kind' than others?

If you believe the later, then know this: The framework of evolution predicts that all bird species would be related to each other in branching trees of descendants. (I could try to claim that fossil and genetic evidence, among other things confirms this, but I know you will try to dismiss that somehow.) The important point to make, here, is that once the tree of relationships is established, various factors amongst them can be inferred.

Part of that was the model of sexual selection amongst birds. And the model works between ALL birds, in that branching-tree manner.

When it comes to endangered species, such as the kakapo, there are not enough to breed them for experiments (if there were, they would not be endangered, would they?) So, you are forced to think outside the species. Any inter-species inferences one can make, for modeling their behavior would be useful. Don't you agree?

Of course, if you believe the former: That all birds emerged from a common kind, then you already accept 99% of the diversification power of Evolution, and there is little reason to keep debating the issue.

Do you understand this better?

If there is anything Intelligent Design is uniquely qualified to add to the matter, what would that be?

stuff like breeding which has been done for thousands of years and predates evo theory, and then say these principles of breeding are based on evo theory, that macroevolutionary theory is what enabled them to work, etc,....it's all hogwash.
I suppose you think gravity is hogwash as well? You know apples fell from trees, long before Newton discovered gravity. They just called it something different: "falling to the ground". Therefore, it could not be based on the principles of gravity, right?

Artificial selection is a special case of natural selection. We are basically interfering with the otherwise natural fitness landscape of animals, so that their offspring will adapt to serve our own demands. But, we cannot control for all aspects of the landscape through breeding. Nature still sneaks in as an important factor, in the form of unintended side effects.

In other words, all of the science you mentioned works just as well if you apply creationism, ID, or anything else
How come Creationism or ID is not generating these ideas or findings? How come Evolutionary biologists are the ones with all the luck?

Doesn't mean they all evolved from a common, original cell.
For that, we have to go down into another layer of science.

In fact, we are seeing the gradual evolution from single cells to multicellular entities, right now, to a certain degree, in some species of sponges and fungi. There is evidence of specialization going on amongst colonies of single celled species, that could, over long periods of time, give rise to new forms of organized multicelled species.

Here is one such paper, I plucked out randomly, that gives us some insight: http://nature.berkeley.edu/taylorlab/papers/medina2003.pdf


As far as ID or creationism, they are a framework like evo theory and they work. Deal with it.
ID infers that certain things are 'irreducibly complex'. Can you give me an example of how this is supposed to make something 'work'?

On sedimentation, for example, the creationist model for lower layers not always and perhaps rarely being laid down gradually has astonishingly been shown to be correct, defying what one would expect.
I think most geologists, including non-great-flood geologists would expect that. There are avalanches, volcanic eruptions, plate-tectonics, etc. But, for some reason, the evidence for fossils in the Grand Canyon show that they are far, far older than Creationists would estimate. Such data is also useful to miners, though that would not be allowed in the Grand Canyon, specifically, of course. Flood geology is not terribly helpful, for example, when it comes to finding gold deposits or oil, in ways that other sciences are.

Conservation efforts would be there with or without belief in neodarwinism. Sorry but trying to say macroevo theory is making an impact in these areas is downright silly.
Oh, I am sure conservation efforts would go on without Darwinism.

I have demonstrated that Darwinism has contributed in real, valuable ways to those efforts. Saving the Kakapo, for example, required insights from the study of Evolution. ID would not have saved them. If evolution was really such a hoax, they would all be dead.

If I am wrong, then tell me: What would Intelligent Design contribute to such efforts?
 
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Wowbagger, first you don't understand Dr Axe's shorthand with his comment on "chance." If you understood his paper, you'd understand very well why he is right on the money and the comment on "chance" is appropriate.

Try looking at the empirical data rather than just talking about empiricism.

On the bird species, you are presenting a plan to help birds evolve where we have 0 results so far as empirical data?

Maybe you need to go back and look up what empirical data is because using a theory to develop a model in this case is not empirical data. The only empirical data, such as the fossils, doesn't need macro theory to help the birds survive, and it is highly dubious that some evos claiming they can figure out how to better manipulate the birds environmentally to evolve in a beneficial fashion is highly suspect, but regardless, if successful it would demonstrate an ID paradigm, not a Darwinian one.

Saving the Kakapo, for example, required insights from the study of Evolution. ID would not have saved them. If evolution was really such a hoax, they would all be dead.

You keep making non-factual comments like the one above. You do realize that insights from the study of evolution have, as of this date, not made one iota of impact on the Kakapo. The idea evolutionary theory itself has saved them is indicative of the pseudo-religious nature of evolutionism; in this case imputing a messianic aspect to the theory. The reality is you read about a plan based on evo theory of maybe trying to figure out how to help the bird evolve. But you fail to realize that's all it is, a plan. There are no actual successful results to date of a new macroevolution of the bird. Evo theory has not saved the bird, and without evo theory, the species would still be alive just the same as today.

Conservation efforts saved the bird, for now, not evo theory. People have been figuring out what areas serve plants whether fruit, vintages, flowers, etc,.....or animals such as certain breeds of cattle, for thousands of years, long before evo theory was ever invented.

So insights from evo theory were not critical to the birds preservation. Nor is comparing similar species and their habitats something new that only evolutionists have considered in the past 100 years.
 
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Let's see what methods are used to preserve these birds. According to you, they are things that wouldn't be done except for evolutionary theory.

From wiki.....not the best source but suffices here.

A key part of the Recovery Plan is the supplementary feeding of females. The Kakapo breeds only once every two to five years, when a certain type of plant species, primarily Dacrydium cupressinum (rimu), produces protein-rich fruit and seeds. Observations of the relationship between intermittent breeding and the plant's mast year help biologists choose which suitable supplementary foods to increase Kakapo breeding frequency.[63] In 1989, six preferred foods (apples, sweet potatoes, almonds, brazil nuts, sunflower seeds and walnuts) were supplied ad libitum each night to 12 feeding stations. Males and females ate the supplied foods, and females nested on Little Barrier Island in the summers of 1989–91 for the first time since 1982, although nesting success was low.[64]
Supplementary feeding not only increases Kakapo breeding frequency, but also affects the sex ratio of Kakapo offspring, as maternal conditions influence this ratio.[65] (See section "Reproduction" for more information on this topic.) This finding was subsequently used to increase the number of female chicks by deliberately manipulating maternal condition.[66] During the winter of 1981, only females below 1.5 kg weight were given supplementary feeding to avoid raising their body condition, and the sex ratio results in 1982 were close to parity, eliminating the male-biased sex ratios in the unrestricted feeding.
Though breeding can be improved by supplementary feeding, the survival of young Kakapo is hampered by the presence of Polynesian rats. Of 21 chicks that hatched between 1981 and 1994, nine were either killed by rats or died and were subsequently eaten by rats.[63] Nest protection has been intensified since 1995 by using traps and poison stations as soon as a nest had been detected. A small video camera and infra-red light source watch the nest continuously, which will remotely scare approaching rats by small bang and flash lights. To increase the success rate of nesting, a nest watcher places a small thermostatically controlled electric blanket over the eggs or chicks, whenever the female leaves the nest for food. The survival rate of chicks has increased from 29% in unprotected nests to 75% in protected ones.[63]
To monitor the Kakapo population continuously, each bird is equipped with a radio transmitter.[63] Every known Kakapo, barring some young chicks, has been given a name by Kakapo Recovery Programme officials. It is an affectionate way for conservation staff to refer to individual birds, and a stark reminder of how few remain. Artificial incubation of eggs and hand-raising of chicks have often been used to improve the condition of the eggs and chicks.[67] In November 2005, the population comprised 41 females and 45 males, including four fledgings (3 females and 1 male) bred in 2005.[4] The oldest known Kakapo, "Richard Henry", was thought to be 80 years old at the time of his death in December 2010.[68]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kakapo#Kakapo_recovery_plan

So they feed the females more and a selective diet to make them more productive. Do you honestly believe people never did stuff like this before evo theory? That the whole idea of feeding an animal a nutritionally higher diet to influence it's birth productivity is something new that evos came up with?

They also kill off their predators. Wow. Evos are the first ones to think of this. I mean the poor birds would be dead by now if evo theory didn't teach us that predators like feral cats kill birds. Men never understood that before Darwin?
 
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