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Evil - or is that too simple?

jimmygun said:
Do you claim that all positive advancements are the result of religious based governments? I would dissagree with you whole heartedly. It was not until the iron grip of religion was relaxed that mankind started to make giant, positive strides in science.

How many computers did Jim Bakker invent? How many new crops were invented by Rex Humbard? What pleasure pastimes were invented by the Catholic church? All these examples have had to run the biggoted gauntlet of religion just to be heard, let alone developed.

When the common man threw off his religious shackles he was free to inquire, to seek, to teach and transfer his knowledge. Today we live in a society that is trying to actually put a real barrier between the state and religion because it has proven to be absolutely imperative for us to go forward. Those that would reattach the state to religion would stiffle and punish free thinking.
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:clap:
 
hgc said:
You've been asked before, but alway demur: What is the source of your absolute morals?
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Hello.

If we define absolute morals as a epoch relative category{meaning, they are absolute within a certain time frame, but should be changed according to necessity}, then we have a starting point for worldwide agreement.

Reason is any individuals guide and can only be referenced to "life", so we define what we consider the basics of life and we develop doctrines to support those basics.

The basics CANNOT be determined exclusively using a pain/pleasure dynamic...reason must also be introduced and must be referenced to life, we need to use reason to hypothesize ideals of behaviour to overcome appeals by mascochists and crazies in general and to create minimum standards of behaviour...behaviour reflecting thinking and combined with the undisputable reality of human existence{such as everyone needs air/water}, we create an absolute epoch relative moral code.

Of course, in this era of scientism and capitalism, it would be reprehensible to devote our energies to helping every member of society regardless of age or socio-economic status.

History proves that mankind links its behaviour and ethics with its cosmological ethos, thus ethics and cosmology co-define each other and this obviously has an impact on people's welfare, especially if the cosmology is limited or disturbed and referenced to "inanimate matter" such as within our current era of scientism.
 
You must have a point, but damned if I see it. I get to bring up China on my side of the argument.
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You made a statement that atheistic societies don't outlast their
rulers. China is "officially" an atheistic society. Chaiman Mao
has been dead for sometime now and the chinese government
seems to be unchanged (at least idealisticly) and still continues to survive despite U.S. and U.N. sanctions, a failed revolt. and other pressures which toppled the U.S.S.R.

Morals, ethics, and "good and evil" are subjective in societies.

Just read this weeks commentary concerning laws and the bible.
The bible says selling your daughter into slavery is A.O.K. Good and moral conduct by ancient biblical standards. Bad by todays standards. So is the bible really a good source for morals and ethics?

From Randi's commentary
6. Each citizen shall have the right to sell his daughter(s) into slavery, setting his own price. (Exodus 21:7)
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Some questions I have for you are, The U.S. dropping two atomic bombs on Japanese civillians. Was that good or evil? Which point a view is the moraly justifiable one and why? Which standards do you use to determin which? Are those standards universal and why?

My personal opinion is that human nature really hasn't improved over the centuries. We have loftier ideals, but I don't see anyone as a society living up to those goals. Individuals yes, but not societies.
 
c4ts said:
The causes of a successful society are so numerous that you cannot simply point to something like establishment and determine it to be the cause. In fact, religion is often so politicized it's indistinguishable from law, especially with ancient civilizations.
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Numerous? You actually believe that?

What? Law & Order, stable economic system/currency, borders defined & defended (i.e. an army), infrastructure for travel/communication, stable food/water(&power) sources, sense of civic pride(a lingua franca, commonality of basic aims, continuity over generations), for example. Do you think anarchy stabilizes a society?

What these stable societies provide is continuity & a framework that allows advances to be made, especially in technological fields.

Shared religion is a good source of "civic commonality", at least historically.


uruk: You overlooked the word "often". Think Pol Pot & 3rd Reich. USSR made it 70+ years, China is now at 50+.

ReUR ?'s: Sorry, morals & ethics are societal, and who has ever, or will ever, apply them to "the enemy"? Geopolitics including war; when is that "moral'?
 
uruk said:


point well taken. I have to disagree with you though about
Hitler and the third reich. Hitler was definitely a self proclaimed christian. Checkout the site below. Or read Mien Kampf
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Er, sure. We had a naturalist here state he was a Fundy Christian. I don't believe him either.

Stephen Jay Gould; what a pompous joke. He may have actually believed what he wrote, but who will ever know? If we had asked him he might have said he was god. :eek:
 
If you don't believe Gould, read Mien Kampf. Written by Hitler himself. He Proclaims himself to be a christian. He felt he was following the good ole christian values set forth by those that brought you the inquisition, the crusades, indulgances, witch trials, manifest destiny, etc...

Religion , Like any other institution of man, is more often than not abused by people to control the masses or for personal gain.
 
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