Every sperm is sacred? Depends on who's being sued.

[angrysoba]

Yep, those Catholics are mostly right-to-lifers, and prone to argue that even a fetus is a human.

Actually, this is wrong.

Seven out of 10 British Catholics believe that a woman should have the right to choose whether to have an abortion, according to a remarkable new poll that shows how far out of step the Vatican is with its congregation as Pope Benedict XVI completes his first visit to the UK.

The poll conducted by YouGov, which also revealed that nine out of 10 Catholic worshippers support the wide availability of contraception, quizzed a sample of more than 1,600 practising Catholics about their views on the vexed issues of abortion and contraception.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...bortion-and-use-of-contraception-2083291.html

 

[Acleron]

Actually, this is wrong.



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...bortion-and-use-of-contraception-2083291.html

Yes the hypocrisy runs deep, providing you can say that catholics who disobey the strictures from on high are really catholics. When they want to play a numbers game, those who argue against their leaders are included. When such statistics as you have displayed are quoted then it can be quite blatantly stated that anyone who steps out of line is not a catholic. Slippery people indeed.

 

[angrysoba]

Yes the hypocrisy runs deep, providing you can say that catholics who disobey the strictures from on high are really catholics. When they want to play a numbers game, those who argue against their leaders are included. When such statistics as you have displayed are quoted then it can be quite blatantly stated that anyone who steps out of line is not a catholic. Slippery people indeed.

I'm not sure what you mean. I think the figures demonstrate that most Catholics do not agree that every sperm is sacred.

 

[Caper]

Yep, those Catholics are mostly right-to-lifers, and prone to argue that even a fetus is a human.

A fetus is a human (after a certain period of time). Many countries and states deny abortion after a certain time precisely because of this.

 

[thaiboxerken]

A fetus is human, so is a zygote. However, are they beings? I doubt it.

 

[Caper]

A fetus is human, so is a zygote. However, are they beings? I doubt it.

I don't think a Zygote is... but a fetus.... at some point... absolutely. Something Science has really showed over the last couple of decades. It's way you need a very good reason to kill them in most countries.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Do you have a link to the scientific papers that give proper evidence that a fetus is a human being?

 

[Recovering Agnostic]

I'm not sure what you mean. I think the figures demonstrate that most Catholics do not agree that every sperm is sacred.

The figures do demonstrate that. But this is nevertheless the settled and unambiguous teaching of the church. When discussing the actions of the church as a body (because I've yet to hear any claims that any specific person is being hypocritical), that's surely the only relevant point to consider. I think Tricky was wrong to suggest that the majority of people who identify as Catholics believe this personally, but that's an error of detail rather than substance, as the church's official teaching is the only relevant point when discussing accusations against the church as an institution.

As it happens, I have some sympathy with the church on this issue, along the lines of Avalon's arguments, but also because the church is expected to suck it up when a conflict between their morals and state law creates problems for them, so it seems a bit much to expect them to pass up the odd chance to exploit a conflict that falls in their favour for once. I'm not sure that moral and legal arguments necessarily have to reach the same conclusion, even if they appear superficially similar.

 

[Darth Rotor]

As they say in the Catholic Church on Friday nights, "Bingo!"

Wednesday, as in the Adams Family.

Is the trial about ideology or medical malpractice?

Huntsman had a criteria that makes considerable physical and ideological sense (a banned member who is a life long Catholic): when the heart starts beating, it's hard to not refer to the growing life form in the womb as a human being.

Every sperm would not be sacred on that score, nor on the following:

from what I understand of current RCC teaching, the sacred threshold is when the sperm and egg combine successfully, which establishes "two become one flesh" and thus a parallel to the man/woman fusion into one, the married state of two becoming one flesh. (Scriptural reference is in Genesis).

However, there is often reference to "I knew you before you were in the womb" (Jeremiah, IIRC) that is sometimes cited as a pillar among the abortion clinic vigil standers as a point for that "sacred threshold" being previous to that.

Avalon's point is intriguing, in terms of what the attorney does for his client.

I have a good friend, Catholic, practicing, and a family law attorney. Insofar as the rending of "two being one flesh," he deals with divorces and other such traumatic family things in his daily work. He sometimes feels real conflict between his responsibilities to his clients, purely legal side, and his beliefs. My advice to him is that his role is to make the best of a bad situation. Small consolation, no doubt.

 

[Hellbound]

Huntsman had a criteria that makes considerable physical and ideological sense (a banned member who is a life long Catholic): when the heart starts beating, it's hard to not refer to the growing life form in the womb as a human being.

No, Huntsman did NOT. Huntsman is atheist, not Catholic, and is not banned, he had his name changed to Hellbound.

Sheesh, I changed my nick to avoid this confusion and I STILL have to deal with being confused with Huntster.

 

[Jon.]

A fetus is human, so is a zygote. However, are they beings? I doubt it.

I don't think a Zygote is... but a fetus.... at some point... absolutely. Something Science has really showed over the last couple of decades. It's way you need a very good reason to kill them in most countries.

Do you have a link to the scientific papers that give proper evidence that a fetus is a human being?

I suspect that you guys are talking past each other a little bit here, because there is a difference between "human" as an adjective and "human" as a noun.

My thumbnail, my hair cells, and, yes, my sperm are all human - as in "human thumbnail", "human hair" and "human sperm." That is the adjectival use of the word human, and in that sense, the zygote is human - as, indeed, were the cells that fused to form it.

The noun "human" is, I think, shorthand for "human being" and carries implications of personhood. Legally, the zygote is not a human (being); nor is the fetus until it is born alive.

When the zygote/fetus passes from being human (adjectival) to being a human (noun), in any sense other than the legal one, is something I will not comment on.

 

[thaiboxerken]

I said human being to be clear. I know the anti-abortion side often says human to be vague.

 

[Dog Breakfast]

In case anybody's interested here is a NYT op-ed about this mess.

Very cogent, if you ask me, although I suggest bringing along some anti-venom for safety's sake.