Euthyphro's Dilemma

[Egg]

Sounds like to me.

No. Essentially what I was saying is that differing perceptions of morality between different humans does not rule out the possibility of there being an absolute morality.

Would you care to give an example of an "absolute morality" that is shared by all civilizations and humans?

Do you mean an absolute moral that everyone would agree on? There may well not be one.

 

[D'rok]

If we're talking Plato, then the various and differing incarnations of moral systems are cave-wall shadow-puppetry. Euthyphro's dilemma does not illustrate that there is no absolute Form of piety/morality or whatever. It demonstrates that Euthyphro doesn't know what it is.

The universal presence of a moral system in all civilizations and, generally speaking, amongst all humans implies the possibility that these differing systems are reflective of a universal, absolute morality imperfectly understood. Personally, I think that it is highly unlikely and probably wrong, but Egg's point is correct.

IMO, we would do well to abandon the search for Forms and get on with the practical business of living together and governing ourselves.

 

[paximperium]

No. Essentially what I was saying is that differing perceptions of morality between different humans does not rule out the possibility of there being an absolute morality.

Thanks for the clarification although I still have an issue with it.
How do you falsify your claim of an absolute morality?

Do you mean an absolute moral that everyone would agree on? There may well not be one.

I'm not asking about everyone. I'm asking about any one absolute morality that you can identify.

 

[Egg]

Thanks for the clarification although I still have an issue with it.
How do you falsify your claim of an absolute morality?

Again, I didn't make a claim of an absolute morality. I don't know if the notion of an absolute morality could be falsified. I can't think of a way off-hand.

I'm not asking about everyone. I'm asking about any one absolute morality that you can identify.

If you're not asking about a moral that everyone agrees on, then I don't understand what you mean by this question. Can you try to put it another way?

 

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

In terms of what I was suggesting, I would think that would be the case, yes.

Of course that brings us back to the original question: "Is what is moral commanded by God because it is moral, or is it moral because it is commanded by God?"

A Muslim friend of mine once told me an interesting "solution" to the dilemma. He said that Allah created the universe and therefore what is moral and commands us to do so because it is moral.

 

[westprog]

Euthyphro's Dilemma is essentially this:

Is what is moral commanded by God because it is moral, or is it moral because it is commanded by God?

The first case implies that there is a morality independent of God - that God follows what is moral just like we do. The second implies that morality is arbitrary - God simply decides what is moral and what is not.

Thoughts?

This question assumes that God is a person, while morality is some kind of underlying principle. This might make sense in the pagan conception of gods as human beings living in the clouds, but it's out of date in any modern conception. If God is the underlying principle of the universe, then obviously he's also the basis of morality. If he isn't, then he doesn't exist. The conflict lies only in seperating two things which are inextricably bound together.

 

[arthwollipot]

I always believed in the first case when I was a Christian. I had never heard of Euthyphro's Dilemma until now though.

Neither had I - but it was mentioned in the latest Reasonable Doubts podcast.

Just a quibble: The dilemma in Euthyphro is the nature of piety, not morality.

The original dialogue was, yes. The original dialogue also referenced polytheism. These days it is usually used in a moral sense. At least, that's what Wikipedia tells me.

 

[bobcarp]

Euthyphro's Dilemma is essentially this:

Is what is moral commanded by God because it is moral, or is it moral because it is commanded by God?

In other words, was killing and stealing moral before god gave Moses the 10 commandments, or did it suddenly become immoral after Moses received the commandments.

I wonder if the Israelites, upon hearing the 10 commandments from Moses, replied, “Hey, he’s right. We shouldn’t go around killing people and stealing. We never thought anything was wrong with that until now.”

Or did they say,

“We shouldn’t kill and steal? Well no kidding Mo. What other obvious thing did he say, that we shouldn’t lie?”