Merged Euthanasia

[Darat]

A glucose drip in the arm is hardly 'force feeding' in the older sense of brutally forcing tubes down to the stomach.

Glucose drip would alone would not be enough to keep someone alive.
And if the person kept removing the drip?

 

[Darat]

According to the original article, which we now know was fake news, put out by an unreliable news agency, which was picked up by national presses all over the world, nonetheless it claimed doctors agreed she should be euthanised because rape must be so terribly unbearable for her. So it came across a a bunch of male doctors dictating what they imagine a young woman should be feeling.

You must have missed it but we've left the report in the opening post behind us and have been for many posts now talking about hypotheticals.

 

[Darat]

The vast majority of mental illness that leads to suicide (depression) is self-limiting. In other words it goes into remission sooner or later of its own accord, usually within two year at the most. Your assertion that depression is permanent is medically incorrect, thus your argument is based on a false premise, i.e., that a feeling of sadness or hopelessness can be as 'terminal' as stage four cancer.

I've never said depression is permenant, you seem to have got the wrong end of the stick.

How many years of suffering does someone have to wait before they are allowed to make decisions about their life continuing or ending?

 

[kayle]

I'd take with a pinch of salt a story about someone tying themselves to a tree then pouring petrol on themselves and lighting it.

Edited by zooterkin: 

<SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.

 

[kayle]

Suicide is the second leading cause of death for children, adolescents, and young adults age 5-to-24-year-olds.

if it was Alzheimers, it would be a bit strange, wouldn't it

 

[kayle]

And with some surprising posts.

Edited by zooterkin: 

<SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.

 

[dudalb]

IMHO Euthanesia should only apply to terminal physical illnesses. I am extremely uncomfortable with it being allowed in cases of mental illness.
Yes, I know in the end you can't really prevent somebody from preventing suicide.But we don't have to make it easy for them.
There really are no easy pat answers.

 

[p0lka]

I'm stuck on this idea of tying yourself to a tree then setting fire to yourself?
That's terrible.

Apart from the physical complications, you are taking away the choice of your future self to change their mind once they start burning.
That seems to be more than suicide to me.

 

[Babbylonian]

IMHO Euthanesia should only apply to terminal physical illnesses. I am extremely uncomfortable with it being allowed in cases of mental illness.
Yes, I know in the end you can't really prevent somebody from preventing suicide.But we don't have to make it easy for them.
There really are no easy pat answers.

My position is that my comfort level is irrelevant when it comes to someone else deciding to end their life after a long period of suffering for which available medical treatments have proven ineffective. Having a mental illness does not automatically mean a person is incompetent (legally or morally) to make life-altering or life-ending decisions.

I might come to a different conclusion if for whatever reason potentially curative medical treatments haven't even been attempted (as could easily be the case in this ******** country where going to an emergency room can bankrupt a person) but, just as I have no say in what a woman does with her uterus, I have no place in another person's decision whether or not to continue living. I can provide encouragement, I can try to do things that may make such a person's life a little better, etc., but if they decide their suffering is intolerable I won't stop them from doing what they feel they have to. Depending on the situation, I may even help them if they need it. It would be terrible for me, but it's not about me.

 

[theprestige]

My position is that my comfort level is irrelevant when it comes to someone else deciding to end their life after a long period of suffering for which available medical treatments have proven ineffective.

Obviously you abstain from voting.

 

[kellyb]

What about the cases that aren't part of the vast majority?

It doesn't sound like this girl lacked for earlier treatment for her mental issues.

Maybe hers wasn't part of "[t]he vast majority".

Are any of us in a better position to judge? It doesn't sound like her family was negligent in trying other alternatives first.

No, but it's still hard for me to imagine not keeping on trying new, different medical interventions till something worked.

 

[kellyb]

Would a parent want their kid to remain alive even though they are suffering day in day out if the kid didn't want to suffer any longer?

The question (which there is no answer for) is "For how long?"

If we had a crystal ball and knew the kid would snap out of it in a few days, of course the obvious choice would be intervene and prevent death. Or, if on the other hand, it was known that the suffering would never, ever abate, year after year for decades, then letting the child die as painlessly as possible would be the more moral thing to do.

Not knowing is what makes this whole thing so tricky.

 

[Marcus]

If someone is really determined to die, and stays that way, over a period of years, you really can't stop them, even if they are only 17. I don't blame the parents, they tried everything, numerous hospital stays, countless counseling sessions and glucose iv's, even a medically induced coma so proper gastric feeding could be used. Yes, it will keep someone alive, but what then? At some point you have to accede to her wishes, you can't keep her unconscious until she's 21.

 

[kellyb]

I've never said depression is permenant, you seem to have got the wrong end of the stick.

How many years of suffering does someone have to wait before they are allowed to make decisions about their life continuing or ending?

When you're an adult, you're the captain of your own ship. Kill yourself over stubbing your toe for all I care. The decision to stop or continue existing is far too personal for me to say what's right or wrong for everyone else as some sort of general rule.

 

[kellyb]

If someone is really determined to die, and stays that way, over a period of years, you really can't stop them, even if they are only 17. I don't blame the parents, they tried everything, numerous hospital stays, countless counseling sessions and glucose iv's, even a medically induced coma so proper gastric feeding could be used. Yes, it will keep someone alive, but what then? At some point you have to accede to her wishes, you can't keep her unconscious until she's 21.

Pretty sure I'd doctor shop for someone willing to try off-label use of euphoria-inducing and/or appetite stimulating drugs before I'd throw in the towel and just accept that my kid was destined to die from sadness.

 

[Elagabalus]

No, but it's still hard for me to imagine not keeping on trying new, different medical interventions till something worked.

Sorry Kellyb, the technology-will-always-find-a-way-and-prevail mantra is only acceptable in the Driverless cars thread!

 

[carlitos]

I'm stuck on this idea of tying yourself to a tree then setting fire to yourself?
That's terrible.

Apart from the physical complications, you are taking away the choice of your future self to change their mind once they start burning.
That seems to be more than suicide to me.

Set the gas can down. Tie your hands together around the tree trunk. Realize that you can’t reach the gas can. That’s how I pictured it.

I guess you could tie a sort of belt around your waist to keep your arms free.

 

[abaddon]

Why do we have to think of it as being wrong or right? The nearest I can get to a right or wrong judgement is that I think it is wrong if people don't have access to medical treatment and therefore they have no chance of being treated.

Yeah. I found that to be the single most difficult part when I got involved with counselling. Much as ones instinct might be to judge, one must never do that.

 

[Marcus]

Pretty sure I'd doctor shop for someone willing to try off-label use of euphoria-inducing and/or appetite stimulating drugs before I'd throw in the towel and just accept that my kid was destined to die from sadness.

Although we haven't heard their whole story, it sounds like they spent years exploring every possible avenue. Refusing to eat and drink because you want to die, as has been pointed out, isn't anorexia, but the struggle plays out in a similar manner. Force feeding is a short term strategy only, and it had already been tried.

 

[Dancing David]

People keep saying things like the highlighted as if the possibility that suffering could be alleviated, even if repeated attempts to do so have failed, is enough to justify denying someone the right to end their suffering by choosing to die. The logical end to this is depriving such a person of their freedom by locking them up until they're feeling better, or forever.

If I spend years in pain (physical, mental, and/or emotional) despite treatment, pain that I decide to stop by taking effective steps to ending my own life, my liberty shouldn't be taken away because treatment might work someday.

I value life and certainly wouldn't advocate suicide as an early option for pain relief, but life for the sake of itself isn't life, not for a human being anyway.

That isn't what my general comment was directed to, I was just responding to a sense of certain other posts, that suffering is a reason for suicide.

I am one of those who has worked with over 300 people who were actively suicidal, and even those who did attempt unsuccessfully were always grateful to not be dead.
I personally draw the line with mental illness as the cause of the pain, just a personal view.

I have lived with mental illness for my whole life and attempted suicide once when I was 13, fortunately unsuccessfully. Now that I am under treatment and dealt with childhood trauma and other afflictions, I am glad to be alive. The last time I had serious suicidal ideation was over 20 years ago. My son who is living with bipolar disorder is feeling much better since he started medical and psychological treatment.

Now in my POV, which is not one anyone else has to share, is that for mental illness it is usually a lack of treatment that leads to suicidal ideation and the pain that prompts it.

Now again if someone in their majority is suffering chronic pain , then that is their right to consider suicide. However it is a violent and often traumatic experience for the people who know the individual. Often palliative care can be effective in many ways. But if someone wants to off themselves I think they should be allowed to do so with medical assistance after a course of intervention.