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Merged Euthanasia

Well....

Obviously the outcome was the same, and is no less tragic now we better know the truth.

But, I'm very glad to discover the doctors did not act to hurt this young woman.

I'm still sad she's gone, and still very much believe in doing whatever is possible when trying to prevent people from taking irrevocable actions.
 
JoeMorgue said:
(snip)
I think it's maybe it's because "I feel like the emotional pain is never going to go away" is one of the big things in non-euthanasia suicide cases we fight so hard to counter.

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So much this. In my experience, most of the people who consider or plan suicide don't want to die. They want to stop hurting. But suicide doesn't solve the problem, doesn't lead to a better life, doesn't take one to a faraway happy place. It ends one's existence.

As long as a person is alive, they have the potential to change anything and everything about their lives.

And I firmly believe most of those who do jump or pull the trigger regret it, and many suddenly realize every other problem they were dealing with had a solution of some kind -except that last, mortal act.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Confession.

In most cases I don't get the "assisted" part of assisted suicide. What exactly do (g)you need help with?
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Make sure it's done right, for example. And with as little pain and mess and trauma as possible.

What percentage of suicide attempts are actually successful?

Ever hear of those cases where someone tries, but doesn't quite succeed? It could leave permanent injuries but fail to do what you wanted to do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_attempt

n the U.S., the NIMH reports there are 11 nonfatal suicide attempts for every suicide death.[3] The American Association of Suicidology reports higher numbers, stating that there are 25 suicide attempts for every suicide completion.[4] By these numbers, approximately 92–95% of suicide attempts end in survival.

In the United States, ratio of suicide attempts to suicide death is about 25:1 in youths, compared to about 4:1 in elderly.[5] Compared to adolescents in developed countries, suicide attempt is more common among adolescents in developing countries where the 12-month prevalence of suicide attempt was reported as 17%.[6]

In contrast to suicide mortality, rates of nonfatal self harm are consistently higher among females.[7]
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Wow, looking at those figures, I didn't realize just how hard it is to kill oneself. Over 9 in 10 tries fail.
 
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lionking said:
Teenage suicide will never stop, and much (perhaps not enough) is being spent to minimise this happening. The issue here (and I’m repeating myself) is the government saying “fair enough, go ahead” when there is no terminal disease. Is this not normalising teenage suicide? Is this not the slippery slope the euthanasia opponents talk about?

I think yes to both questions. It is not outlandish to imagine many troubled young people seeing this young girl attracting celebrity, sympathy and sorrow (things denied to them) and deciding “this is my path”. This is a horrible outcome.

I trust this event will lead to review of these laws.

As I said earlier, I am pro-euthanasia but with restrictions. This is not a harsh or unreasonable position to hold.
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How much suffering do we determine is enough before we allow someone the freedom of decision?

I don't separate mental and "physical" illness, to me they are simply illness and if an illness makes someone suffer so much that they want to die I don't think it is my place to say no they can't.

What do you find wrong with the Netherland's euthanasia laws and regulation?
 
lionking said:
And yet there are countless people who have recovered from anorexia. Not so many with pancreatic cancer and lung cancer. I think you need to re-think what “terminal” means.
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Life tends to be terminal. Not meaning it to be flippant but just as a reminder that death is not something any of us can avoid.

In regards to your position does the amount someone is suffering not factor into your criteria?
 
Puppycow said:
Make sure it's done right, for example. And with as little pain and mess and trauma as possible.

What percentage of suicide attempts are actually successful?

Ever hear of those cases where someone tries, but doesn't quite succeed? It could leave permanent injuries but fail to do what you wanted to do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_attempt
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*Winces* Okay... I don't want to uncover this can of worms but...

I don't think very many suicide attempts fail at all.

I think a lot of attention and/or help seeking under the guise of suicide fail.

On a purely mechanical, nuts and bolts level killing yourself ain't that hard.

Most of the time people who want to die, kill themselves. People who want help try to kill themselves.

How this interfaces with assisted suicide is... not clear.
 
I don't separate mental and "physical" illness, to me they are simply illness and if an illness makes someone suffer so much that they want to die I don't think it is my place to say no they can't.
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The difference is that emotional pain usually changes with the circumstances, whereas physical pain has physical causes that can't be changed.
 
lionking said:
Okay thanks. I’m not sure a twitter post in necessarily definitive, but if this turns out to be correct, I will withdraw my comments in this thread.



I remain opposed to a law which would allow euthanasia in cases like this though.
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What is different apart from the legal definition? She choose to end her life, you seemed to be opposed to that when it carried the legal term euthanasia, I don't see what is different?
 
Darat said:
I don't separate mental and "physical" illness, to me they are simply illness and if an illness makes someone suffer so much that they want to die I don't think it is my place to say no they can't.
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Then is suicide just... open then? Like never wrong?

There's not a suicide in history that wouldn't fall under "I'm in pain and I feel like it's not worth going on." Hell that's a workable definition for it.

Then what context and standards do we ever use to stop someone from committing or attempting suicide?
 
JoeMorgue said:
I hate things like that where I won't sit here and pretend it doesn't strike me as wrong but I can't actually come up with any functional argument as to what is "wrong" about it.
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That's my experience in this case (or what we originally thought had happened.) it sounds wrong to me, but when I thought about it more I couldn't come up with a reason why it is wrong.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Then is suicide just... open then? Like never wrong?



There's not a suicide in history that wouldn't fall under "I'm in pain and I feel like it's not worth going on." Hell that's a workable definition for it.



Then what context and standards do we ever use to stop someone from committing or attempting suicide?
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I think for legal euthanasia it is fine to regulate and put safe guards in place to try and make it a decision only taken after an objective assessment of the facts. But in the end whether I live should be a decision for me to take.
 
JoeMorgue said:
*Winces* Okay... I don't want to uncover this can of worms but...

I don't think very many suicide attempts fail at all.

I think a lot of attention and/or help seeking under the guise of suicide fail.

On a purely mechanical, nuts and bolts level killing yourself ain't that hard.

Most of the time people who want to die, kill themselves. People who want help try to kill themselves.

How this interfaces with assisted suicide is... not clear.
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Perhaps, but even if we eliminate the "cries for help" from consideration, there's still a pretty high risk of failure. And, it's scary and messy and traumatic. See the "Outcomes" section of the same article.

Suicide attempts can result in serious and permanent injuries and/or disabilities. 700,000 (or more) Americans survive a suicide attempt each year. People who attempt either hanging or charcoal grill carbon monoxide poisoning and survive can face permanent brain damage due to cerebral anoxia. People who take a drug overdose and survive can face severe organ damage (e.g., liver failure). Individuals who jump from a bridge and survive may face irreversible damage to multiple organs, as well as the spine and brain.

While a majority sustain injuries that allow them to be released following emergency room treatment, a significant minority—about 116,000—are hospitalized, of whom 110,000 are eventually discharged alive. Their average hospital stay is 79 days. Some 89,000, 17% of these people, are permanently disabled, restricted in their ability to work.[14]
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A 17% chance of ending up, not dead but permanently disabled (and probably disfigured too) is too great of a risk for my taste. Even shooting yourself in the head doesn't always work, but it will probably leave you worse off than you were before if it fails.

As opposed to this "do it yourself" approach, with doctor-assisted suicide, you can get benefits: You can be pretty sure that it will work, and you can be pretty sure that it won't be painful.
 
Puppycow said:
Perhaps, but even if we eliminate the "cries for help" from consideration, there's still a pretty high risk of failure. And, it's scary and messy and traumatic. See the "Outcomes" section of the same article.



A 17% chance of ending up, not dead but permanently disabled (and probably disfigured too) is too great of a risk for my taste. Even shooting yourself in the head doesn't always work, but it will probably leave you worse off than you were before if it fails.

As opposed to this "do it yourself" approach, with doctor-assisted suicide, you can get benefits: You can be pretty sure that it will work, and you can be pretty sure that it won't be painful.
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Then just do what they do.
 
Anorexia Nervosa can be fatal, the prognosis may not be as bad as pancreatic cancer or lung cancer but is often resistant to treatment.
 
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