Euthanasia/right to die - yes or no?

Euthanasia etc what do you think?

  • With certain safeguards and for certain groups, we should have assisted suicide when the individual

    Votes: 39 26.9%
  • With certain safeguards and for certain groups, we should have assisted suicide even when death is d

    Votes: 95 65.5%
  • There should be no assisted suicide due to moral reasons

    Votes: 2 1.4%
  • there should be no assisted suicide due to slippery slope/administrative reasons

    Votes: 4 2.8%
  • On Planet X everyone over the age of 30 is culled. This largely solves the euthansaia problem.

    Votes: 5 3.4%

  • Total voters
    145
Suicide isn't suicide if someone else is facilitating the death. It is homicide.

Argument by definition doesn't seem to be a very good way to discuss an issue like this?

Homicide is simply a legal definition of killing someone that usually involves the intent to kill; that is why in the UK we have other legal definitions for killing people without intent. For example if I accidentally kill someone it is unlikely to to be considered homicide, it would be classed as "manslaughter".
 
My mother had cancer on and off for about 7 years. That is to say, the doctors would cut it out only for it to reappear somewhere else, or for it to go into remission and the come back.

I remember her sayings once that if she had been a horse that they would have shot her years ago.

I fought with depression for a number of years myself and there were times that I thought I would be better off dead, but I kept going and I am doing very well in my life, both personally and professional. In fact I’d say things have never been better. I don’t know how things would have gone if I had been given a real choice of ending my life

My only concern with euthanasia is when someone has no ability to express their desire to die and it is let to other people to decide. An example would be Alzheimer’s, where a person can no longer communicate anything (though I would rather be dead then end up like that myself)

As long as each case is decided on its own merits and there isn’t a ‘one size fits all’ approach I would agree with Euthanasia
 
Argument by definition doesn't seem to be a very good way to discuss an issue like this?

Homicide is simply a legal definition of killing someone that usually involves the intent to kill; that is why in the UK we have other legal definitions for killing people without intent. For example if I accidentally kill someone it is unlikely to to be considered homicide, it would be classed as "manslaughter".

Right, I would call it excusable homicide, or negligent homicide.

The point I was trying to make is that if there is assistance in the death, then the assistor would be commiting some form of homicide, whether it be justifiable or not.

And my point is in relation to the poll wording, "assisted suicide" could be considered a form of homicide.
 
There is no reason for it, -in my country at least, because medical treatment is free. In my country (Denmark) terminally ill patients can get the painkillers they need and be kept totally pain free to the end. I can se in a system where pain killers are a huge economical burden, there can be an economic reason for wanting euthanasia, "just one injection and i'll spare the family for a lot of money". That is a horrible way of thinking IMHO but hey, you have choosen to live in such a system.

AND for the record, i have experienced a close relative dying from multiple sclerohsis (sorry for the spelling). In the last months she was in a Hospice under constant medical care and basically she could control the morphine herslef. She died very peacefully, and told everybody how much she enjoyed the last period.

Opening up for euthanasia is a VERY slippery slope.
Two things, sometimes pain can only be controlled with a lethal dose. And not everyone who wants a peaceful death is in pain.

In the ICU when you remove a respirator to allow someone to die, morphine is often given to ease the passing. Struggling for air is not necessarily painful depending on how you define pain.

And some people choose death over living in a vegetative state. Such a person would not be in pain. Total dependency such as with quadriplegia also presents euthanasia issues for some people.
 
I support the right, but we also cannot deny the slippery slope fear.

One of the few times I watched ER, there was an old guy dying, and Anthony Edwards had a talk with him about hanging on and how it would affect his family negatively. The purpose was not to explore this issue, but to make the guy consider not continuing treatment or something.


So yes, the claimed fear that society will begin to build up ethic memes as to the inappropriateness of you "hanging on" are very, disturbingly real. I don't have any solution to the collision.
 
and u can get help.

Not without money, you can't.


I hate it when people blythely toss this out there as if it's some sort of universal truth. Well, it ISN'T.

If you haven't any money or any insurance, there's simply not much help to be had. I know. I've looked. So stop spreading false hope, because that's all that little phrase is.

Oh, and let me inform you that mental illness is a legitimate illness and can cause every bit as much suffering as terminal cancer.
 

From the Oregon statute:
127.880 §3.14. Construction of Act. Nothing in ORS 127.800 to 127.897 shall be construed to authorize a physician or any other person to end a patient’s life by lethal injection, mercy killing or active euthanasia. Actions taken in accordance with ORS 127.800 to 127.897 shall not, for any purpose, constitute suicide, assisted suicide, mercy killing or homicide, under the law. [1995 c.3 §3.14]

In Oregon The doctor can prescribe medicine that the person takes themselves. I don't think the Dr. Kevorkian, open the valve for the patient, and help him die applies here.

(L)(A) Dispense medications directly, including ancillary medications intended to facilitate the desired effect to minimize the patient’s discomfort, provided the attending physician is registered as a dispensing physician with the Oregon Medical Board, has a current Drug Enforcement Administration certificate and complies with any applicable administrative rule; or
(B) With the patient’s written consent:
(i) Contact a pharmacist and inform the pharmacist of the prescription; and
(ii) Deliver the written prescription personally or by mail to the pharmacist, who will dispense the medications to either the patient, the attending physician or an expressly identified agent of the patient
.
 
Not without money, you can't.

I hate it when people blythely toss this out there as if it's some sort of universal truth. Well, it ISN'T.

If you haven't any money or any insurance, there's simply not much help to be had. I know. I've looked. So stop spreading false hope, because that's all that little phrase is.


Let's not get into another universal healthcare debate!

However, it really would be tragic if US citizens were opting for euthanasia due to inability to afford proper palliative care. Makes the "death panels" of Palin's imagination pale into insignificance.

Rolfe.
 
Sadly all too often that is not the case, despite medical progress many people with many forms of terminal illness will suffer terrible pain at the end stage no matter what pain control methods are employed.

My grandmother's liver cancer (in 1989) gave her pain that was far beyond the abilities of morphine to alleviate even slightly. It was not a matter of cost, it was the simple fact that there was no analgesic enough.
 
From the Oregon statute:


In Oregon The doctor can prescribe medicine that the person takes themselves. I don't think the Dr. Kevorkian, open the valve for the patient, and help him die applies here.

.
I was responding to your comment claiming it was homicide in the US if, "someone else is facilitating the death". The OR legislature wrote their own definition of (non)assisted suicide into the law to prevent federal prosecutions and board of pharmacy violations.
Actions taken in accordance with ORS 127.800 to 127.897 shall not, for any purpose, constitute suicide, assisted suicide, mercy killing or homicide, under the law. [1995 c.3 s.3.14]
 
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Two things, sometimes pain can only be controlled with a lethal dose. And not everyone who wants a peaceful death is in pain.

In the ICU when you remove a respirator to allow someone to die, morphine is often given to ease the passing. Struggling for air is not necessarily painful depending on how you define pain.

And some people choose death over living in a vegetative state. Such a person would not be in pain. Total dependency such as with quadriplegia also presents euthanasia issues for some people.

In Denmark it is allowed to give huge doses even if "it shortens the life" in order to keep the patient painfree. We also have special doctors/nurses trained solely in pain relief. There is imho. a huge differnece between gradually increasing the dose to relieve pain or from giving "the final injection". I am very against that "final injection" because i can see it as a slope and i have heard stories from Holland about elderly people wanting to end it "here and now" because they didn't want to burden their children. Those stories CAN be andi-euthanasia propaganda off course but on the other hand i have met that attitude amongst old people.

I am also 100% for, stopping treatment that doesn't do any good anymore and that only prolong suffering but it must be under VERY controlled circumstances.

But i saw a documentary about a person that went to Switzerland to "get the shot" and he was not marked by his disease, he seemed very fit (he HAD a lethal disease) but the doctor came and gave him the pills and allowed him to kill himself. THAT is against all my principles.
 
I watched the BBC's programme with Terry's speech on euthanasia and thought it was wonderfull.
I too watched my dad die in agony with cancer.My grief over his death was bad enough but having saw the suffering he had to endure before he died still haunts me. I dont want to go into all the horrible stuff he suffered with but the look on his eyes were heartbreaking.
I certainly dont want my children to go through that kind of thing with me.So I've choosen option 2.
 
This is a very difficult topic for me, as it is for anyone who has lost a loved one to a painful and debilitating disease. So forgive the 'shotgun' approach, but I can't keep it together enough for a formal dissertation.

1) Oh, yes indeed, there are painful conditions for which no medical relief exists. The poster(s) who think there aren't should talk to an ICU nurse or a doctor--or someone who lost a friend to pancreatic cancer. The argument that sometimes it's simple mercy to let someone end the torment is powerful when you have seen what the victims of the current legal situation go through.

2) Fiona, your argument is that physicians should be encouraged to break the law--handling it 'privately and tacitly' as you might put it--and risk themselves or the patient's family members being charged with manslaughter or worse. A doctor convicted of homicide (manslaughter is a lower degree of homicide) will lose his license and livelihood forever. A family member might be imprisoned--would, at the least, have the expense and stress and shame of being arrested and going through a trial--adding to the burden already faced by the death of a loved one. If there are still some brave enough to risk it, does that make it the desired path?? Would it not be better to have a legal standard of when things are "bad enough" instead of making it each doctor's guess?

3) Oregon's "physician assisted suicide" statute has been in place for a number of years, and no landslide of depressed healthy people has occurred. (In fact, the statute requires that if depression is a concern, an evaluation be performed to exclude that as the sole basis for the drug request.) I cannot quote the numbers here, but we just recently (last year or the year before) approved a law in Washington State that was based upon the Oregon statute, and the numbers and example cases were presented extensively by advocates for and against the law. However, that law applies only when the patient is able to take the medicines for themselves and does not cover the case of the fully-disabled terminal case.

4) I cannot speak for anyone else, but I find the notion of being trapped in a pain-wracked, dysfunctional body, unable to end my own suffering and unable to legally request anyone else help me do what I would if I could only move my fingers--or swallow--horrifying. Once I've said my goodbyes, I want to just go into that good night...I think. I won't really know until I'm dying, will I?

5) Allowing administration of lethal drugs to an incompetent (physically) patient is, however, a matter that requires a great deal of building in safeguards, as many have argued. As long as the patient is able to indicate verbally or by, say, eye-guided computer, that they do truly understand their choice; as long as multiple doctors have determined that the the condition is terminal, will progress to death shortly, and includes severe pain; and as long as these evaluation are done without anyone who stands to gain from the death...I think provision should be made.

6) Mental illness is the ultimate slipppery slope, and--while it can cause acute suffering--I think may stay outside the list of conditions for which assisted suicide is legal. The reason for this is that, frankly, the sufferer by definition cannot be "in their right mind" as far as evaluating the likelihood of recovery, the amount of their suffering, or the quality of life they are going to have in the future. It is in the nature of mental illness to distort cognitive function and/or perception: Since we know that anorexics see themselves as fat when they are unhealthily thin, I think that that is demonstrably true. This makes informed consent impossible to come by.

The same is true for someone whose physical illness has damaged or destroyed their cognitive function; I would have to say that the threshhold for allowing, say, head-trauma victims to request lethal medication would have to be much higher than that of those with disorders that do not directly impact the brain.

7) The idea that "social pressures" would lead someone to request legal hurrying of their end is a straw man. There is already a wide variance in how well people cope with catastrophic illness. A number of families and doctors will take Fiona's "private" path to what amounts to assisted suicide even under current law; a number of others will fight for every breath, no matter how pain-ridden or expensive, because of their belief that life is sacred, or that God demands you to suffer as penance, or that courage is the measure of a man, or perhaps simple stubbornness. To my knowledge, no one anywhere is requesting a law that mandates anyone consider terminating their lives!

I believe the challenges are large, but surmountable, to make the acquisition of lethal doses of drugs legal but difficult; to investigate and prosecute any breach of such laws; and to offer the dying a chance to go in peace and without pain. And I believe we are less than merciful to require, as a society, that the dying suffer because someone somewhere thinks it wrong for them to receive surcease. I think making a doctor have to decide between risking his license and seeing a patient scream in agony is the worst kind of misapplied judgment; I think making a family have to risk prosecution for assisting a mother, a brother, an adult child to do what they cannot on their own when the end is a week or a month away, is tantamount to torture.

Anyone who thinks that "it's never okay" should have to listen to and watch their Mother gasping for breath, paralyzed from the navel down by the cancer that is erupting in every quadrant of her body; see her helpless, pleading eyes, and try to read the silent, moving lips. And live with that memory.
 
Anyone who thinks that "it's never okay" should have to listen to and watch their Mother gasping for breath, paralyzed from the navel down by the cancer that is erupting in every quadrant of her body; see her helpless, pleading eyes, and try to read the silent, moving lips. And live with that memory.
Mutatis mutandis, I can only agree with this. Not that my parents asked for euthanasia; I have no idea whether they would have wanted any help in that regard, and nor would I have suggested it. I only mean that if I were in that situation, I would like the option of ending it sooner. I find it absolutely bizarre that some people would prevent me from making that judgment for myself, notwithstanding that I recognize the slippery-slope worries that some have. If I am capable of communication or have signed a document to that effect then it is absolutely none of your business.

If I am able-bodied, I can (legally) choose to end my life whenever I wish, using whatever tools or implements I choose. In what way is another person not acceptable as a tool or implement in that sense, assuming that person is freely willing?
 
Let's not get into another universal healthcare debate!

However, it really would be tragic if US citizens were opting for euthanasia due to inability to afford proper palliative care. Makes the "death panels" of Palin's imagination pale into insignificance.

Rolfe.

Sorry, Rolfe, but you pulled that potential "argument" out of the whole cloth cupboard.

I don't give a gnat's fat behind about universal healthcare, and I wasn't going anywhere near that neighborhood with my remarks. My remarks said and meant exactly what I said, no more, no less:

It is cruel to keep telling people "you can get help," when the truth is that help has to be paid for. If you can't pay, you can't get it. That's my entire statement. Nothing in it about any kind of socialized health care. Nada. Didn't go there. Don't care to go there. But it is not true that "you can get help." It just isn't.
 
One of the choices should be:

6. There SHOULD be assisted suicide regardless of moral reasons.

(Hypothetical Example: 'I would have helped my grandfather die if I had known what Alzheimers was going to do to him, regardless of moral repercussions (guilt))'
 
My grandmother's liver cancer (in 1989) gave her pain that was far beyond the abilities of morphine to alleviate even slightly. It was not a matter of cost, it was the simple fact that there was no analgesic enough.

That was also the case for my great aunt who died from cancer of the liver in the late 1980s - she suffered for many weeks with her pain uncontrolled by analgesic, she would scream and moan. And even when she had lapsed into her last stage of unconsciousness for her final two weeks she would still moan and her body would twitch and spasm. It's heartbreaking to even remember it.
 
however, i agree with the status quo, making suicide attempts a crime. If you are not terminally ill, and u are not in prison for life, and you are not being abused every day, life is not that bad..and u can get help.
You cannot possibly know what life is like for another person. If you think you can or do know what life is like for another person, where does that confidence come from? I want to see evidence that demonstrates life is not that bad for every single person that attempts suicide.

As for attempted suicide being a criminal offence, for which the victim (deliberate choice of word) will then face punishment - what absolute unthinking rot.
 

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