Eureka! A silver bullet against creationists!

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos said:
As you imply above, the people that matter when it comes to "what ID really is" are the cadre of bigwigs, not the average guy on the street. (This is also true of evolution.)

~~ Paul
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Perhaps. A cursory reading of history suggests 'big-wigs' end up as "heads on pikes" when the mob of average guys decide who they will actually support. :)
 
Dog Boots said:
Well, isn't it one thing to assume Satan has put bones in the ground and another to say that he has had success in manipulating the pinnacle of God's creation? That God didn't have complete control over the very thing that is His center of attention? Will theists concede this?
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I've been asking for years why it's valid to hold someone accountable for being misled by the best trickster in the world, one who has super powers for that matter.


Yahweh: You believed these bones in the ground were real! I'm throwing you into Hell for all eternity!

All Religious: Praise his infinitely intelligent and benign nature!

FTW!
 
Meadmaker
How about "Darwin's Black Box".

Amazon.com sales Rank: "Icons of Evolution" 13129
"Darwin's Black Box" 22306
Of Pandas and People 195954
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Of Pandas and People is a text book. Text books aren’t ordered in bulk from Amazon.

Behe believes in the theory of common descent. He believes all life originated with single celled organism and evolved by mutation into the life of today.

What he rejects is natural selection as the sole mechanism for evolution. He believes miraculous intervention was necessary to assist the process.
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I.e. Behe believes non-science, hence Behe rejects evolution.

Ossai
 
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos said:
Of course not. Who said they were?
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(part of a conspiracy)

Anyone who says that ID is just creationism, but disguised in such a way as to sneak past the court system, is saying that. A believer in ID is a believer in ID, and the average believer in ID isn't trying to sneak anything.


As you imply above, the people that matter when it comes to "what ID really is" are the cadre of bigwigs, not the average guy on the street. (This is also true of evolution.)
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If I implied that, I didn't intend to. I think the average guy on the street is precisely who matters. It is that guy you have to persuade, so he doesn't vote for the politicians who promise to teach ID in schools. You have to address his beliefs, and show him why his beliefs are either incorrect or at best unsupported.
 
Meadmaker said:
(part of a conspiracy)

Anyone who says that ID is just creationism, but disguised in such a way as to sneak past the court system, is saying that. A believer in ID is a believer in ID, and the average believer in ID isn't trying to sneak anything.




If I implied that, I didn't intend to. I think the average guy on the street is precisely who matters. It is that guy you have to persuade, so he doesn't vote for the politicians who promise to teach ID in schools. You have to address his beliefs, and show him why his beliefs are either incorrect or at best unsupported.
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i don't think ID is just creationism in disguise. But that doesn't mean I think ID is a scientific theory either.

Evolution attempts to understand the process. ID attempts to describe the intent. One is science, the other isn't.
 
GzuzKryzt said:
(P.S.: Do you like Planet X?)
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We have a winner! :) (Damn, it took me about 10 seconds to figure out it was my name that gave me away...not good)

Virgil Donati's forum was actually where I had my first encounter with a creationist.
 
Meadmaker said:
Anyone who says that ID is just creationism, but disguised in such a way as to sneak past the court system, is saying that. A believer in ID is a believer in ID, and the average believer in ID isn't trying to sneak anything.
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You need to distinguish the central ID cadre from the average person. The cadre is doing the sneaky work. The average guy doesn't know if he is a Creationist/IDer or something similar or something rather different.

If I implied that, I didn't intend to. I think the average guy on the street is precisely who matters. It is that guy you have to persuade, so he doesn't vote for the politicians who promise to teach ID in schools. You have to address his beliefs, and show him why his beliefs are either incorrect or at best unsupported.
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I agree, but this has nothing to do with whether ID is Creationism in fancy pants, as determined by the inventors of intelligent design.

~~ Paul
 
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos said:
Can you list the fundamental differences? Oh wait, here is table comparing them: :D

http://www.pandasthumb.org/archives/2005/11/intelligent_des_11.html

~~ Paul
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nice link. that's funny.
But I agree to not strawman the issue.
ID proponents claim that something/somehow created life. That's it. If they can show me how that can be tested. How such a theory advances knowledge and provokes new questions, I'm all ears.

The main point being is if that is the best case they got, they don't have case.
 
Joobz said:
ID proponents claim that something/somehow created life. That's it. If they can show me how that can be tested. How such a theory advances knowledge and provokes new questions, I'm all ears.
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Yes, that's what the ID bigwigs say. Digging deeper, it still seems like they've glued a veneer over Creationism, agreed to say something different, but gone on their merry way otherwise.

Perhaps we should agree to take ID only at its face (veneer) value. But then the IDers should do the same with evolution, and stop equating it with atheism and immorality. Furthermore, if it's only a thesis about intelligent design of biological mechanisms, then it is a purely scientific enterprise and the IDers ought get up off their butts and start doing some science. The fact that they have no interest in doing so makes me wonder about that veneer.

~~ Paul
 
RandFan said:
Exactly. It's such a rediculous argument we might as well argue whether the Earth is not flat.

It's not BTW.
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You ever been to South Texas? It's pretty flat around here. See also Western Kansas. :) OK, OK, it's a local phenomenon . . .

DR
 
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