EU to help China invade Taiwan

[CBL4]

The EU is planning to lift its arms embargo against China. Meanwhile China threatens to invade Taiwan and increases defense spending by 13% this year (11% last year.)

Of course, once this threat became official France and Germany immediately declared their opposition to selling arms to China. Chirac said "Nothing is more important than freedom." Shroeder said "We would never compromise our principals for money."

Never mind, that was my fantasy. The arm sales are going forward as planned.

CBL

 

[crimresearch]

That's OK...

If China does invade Taiwan, I'm sure the international community's condemnation, and immediate UN resolutions authorizing use of force, will cause them to retreat.

 

[Cleon]

That's OK...

If China does invade Taiwan, I'm sure the international community's condemnation, and immediate UN resolutions authorizing use of force, will cause them to retreat.

Dude, I really hope I'm missing the point of your sarcasm, but going to war with China would be a very, very, very bad idea. No matter what you think of Taiwan being China or not-China, nothing good will come out of a war with the PRC.

 

[Beerina]

China is lead by murderous thugs who are using the Taiwan issue to redirect their population's hatred against the West, evil Capitalists, Nationalists in charge of Taiwan, whatever. This helps them remain in power.

Their more open economy is also giving them more economic might, and therefore more money to spend on military enhancement, to say nothing of better quality military, both thru domestic technological advances thanks to their stronger economy, and their ability to buy more advanced tech from the West, again thanks to both more money and more openness from the West.

In any case, as long as the West (and by that, I mean the US) remains strong enough to slap down China's assault, which it will, and keeps stating so in no uncertain terms, there will be no Chinese attack on Taiwan. Again, it all remains a feint to help control their own population.

Hopefully the West will remember to let Hitler huff and puff, but not to acquiese to territorial demands.

 

[CBL4]

I'm sure the international community's condemnation, and immediate UN resolutions authorizing use of force, will cause them to retreat.

With China's veto power, do you think the resolution will "express concern" or actually "condemn" the invasion? I would bet they will "discuss" it without even expressing concern.

CBL

 

[crimresearch]

"...No matter what you think of Taiwan being China or not-China, nothing good will come out of a war with the PRC"

I think I mentioned this in another thread...

China's rationale for Taiwan is the same as their rationale for Tibet...

Are you saying 'Resistance is futile', so the rest of the world should just close their eyes?

And yes, I was being sarcastic..I expect the same lack of reaction that the world displayed for Tibet.

 

[AWPrime]

The EU must make profit, it is the capitalistic thing to do.

 

[Mike B.]

The EU must make profit, it is the capitalistic thing to do.

However,

it is a bit galling considering all the moralistic lectures from the European left after 9/11 about how the US indirectly or directly caused 9/11 by "supporting dictatorships when it suits them!!!"

 

[Skeptic]

Dude, I really hope I'm missing the point of your sarcasm, but going to war with China would be a very, very, very bad idea. No matter what you think of Taiwan being China or not-China, nothing good will come out of a war with the PRC.

Dude, I really hope I'm missing the point of your sarcasm, but going to war with the USSR would be a very, very, very bad idea. No matter what you think about western Europe being communist or non-communist, nothing good will come out of a war with the USSR.

See the problem with your logic, Cleon? Sometimes, only the willingness to wage a war that is bad, in fact even seemingly hopeless for you, instead of "rationally" surrendering in advance, can stop a determined agressor.

Of course a war with the PRC over Taiwan would be bad for the USA and the free world. But surrendering to its agression without a fight due to such "rational" calculations would be far worse.

 

[punchdrunk]

In any case, as long as the West (and by that, I mean the US) remains strong enough to slap down China's assault, which it will, and keeps stating so in no uncertain terms, there will be no Chinese attack on Taiwan.

I think China will use military force if Taiwan declares independence, perhaps after economic sanctions, which would, if I remember correctly, directly affect 2/3 of Taiwan's economy, to devastating effect. Certainly China is leery of US response, but so are we of them. And while we may state our certain terms, ultimately we have no desire to tangle with them, and they know it. Our response to the bill (" A White House spokesman has called the bill "unhelpful" and asked China to reconsider it") doesn't seem like a hardline response to me, but more rhetoric of diplomacy.

 

[Cleon]

I think I mentioned this in another thread...

China's rationale for Taiwan is the same as their rationale for Tibet...

Yes, you did, and repeating it doesn't make it any more accurate. With Tibet, you have a history of a completely different people, though their history is largely intertwined with China's.

In the case of Taiwan, its history as a "separate country" is less than twenty years old.

Are you saying 'Resistance is futile', so the rest of the world should just close their eyes?

No, I'm saying an all-out war over this would result in many, many, many, MANY people dead, and is therefore a bad idea.

 

[a_unique_person]

The EU is planning to lift its arms embargo against China. Meanwhile China threatens to invade Taiwan and increases defense spending by 13% this year (11% last year.)

Of course, once this threat became official France and Germany immediately declared their opposition to selling arms to China. Chirac said "Nothing is more important than freedom." Shroeder said "We would never compromise our principals for money."

Never mind, that was my fantasy. The arm sales are going forward as planned.

CBL

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0509-07.htm

maybe they are taking a tip from Israel.

 

[Cleon]

Dude, I really hope I'm missing the point of your sarcasm, but going to war with the USSR would be a very, very, very bad idea. No matter what you think about western Europe being communist or non-communist, nothing good will come out of a war with the USSR.

See the problem with your logic, Cleon? Sometimes, only the willingness to wage a war that is bad, in fact even seemingly hopeless for you, instead of "rationally" surrendering in advance, can stop a determined agressor.

Of course a war with the PRC over Taiwan would be bad for the USA and the free world. But surrendering to its agression without a fight due to such "rational" calculations would be far worse.

On the contrary, you proved my point. The Cold War was all about MAD--Mutually Assured Destruction, a perfectly apt acronym if there ever was one.

You want to gamble with millions--if not billions--of lives. Yes, the Cold War didn't graduate to WWIII, thank the gods. But it came really close. Blustering and playing the cowboy might be all well and good in a conservative's wet dream, but sooner or later someone will call the bluff.

 

[DanishDynamite]

The EU is planning to lift its arms embargo against China. Meanwhile China threatens to invade Taiwan and increases defense spending by 13% this year (11% last year.)

Of course, once this threat became official France and Germany immediately declared their opposition to selling arms to China. Chirac said "Nothing is more important than freedom." Shroeder said "We would never compromise our principals for money."

Never mind, that was my fantasy. The arm sales are going forward as planned.

CBL

What exactly is you problem with lifting the embargo?

 

[crimresearch]

Yes, you did, and repeating it doesn't make it any more accurate. With Tibet, you have a history of a completely different people, though their history is largely intertwined with China's.

In the case of Taiwan, its history as a "separate country" is less than twenty years old.

No, I'm saying an all-out war over this would result in many, many, many, MANY people dead, and is therefore a bad idea.

I said China's *rationale* was the same...it was seen as a benefit to the Chinese government's imperialist agenda.

Are you seriously suggesting that the 3rd Reich invaded Poland for entirely different reasons than they occupied the Rhineland?

'Lebensraum' is 'lebensraum'.

And are you also saying that acting to stop German imperialism was a bad idea? Because many, many, many, people died there too.

 

[a_unique_person]

Re: Re: EU to help China invade Taiwan

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0509-07.htm

maybe they are taking a tip from Israel.

And if you think I am just pickig on Israel, all participants in the global arms trade are a disgrace. Without it, many of the wars and oppression would not be happening.

 

[Cleon]

I said China's *rationale* was the same...it was seen as a benefit to the Chinese government's imperialist agenda.

Are you seriously suggesting that the 3rd Reich invaded Poland for entirely different reasons than they occupied the Rhineland?

'Lebensraum' is 'lebensraum'.

And are you also saying that acting to stop German imperialism was a bad idea? Because many, many, many, people died there too.

Funny, I always thought China's rationale was that Taiwan is historically part of China. (Hey, they're right, go figure.) At least, that's what the Chinese say. Unless you mean imperial expansion is the reason China's claiming Taiwan, whether they say so or not. "Rationale" means something different. (Hitler's rationale for invading Poland was because Poland was supposedly about to attack Germany. His reason was expanding the Reich.)

One would think if China was so gung-ho about expanding its territory it would pick someplace a bit larger than Taiwan.

 

[crimresearch]

Funny, I always thought China's rationale was that Taiwan is historically part of China. (Hey, they're right, go figure.) At least, that's what the Chinese say. Unless you mean imperial expansion is the reason China's claiming Taiwan, whether they say so or not. "Rationale" means something different. (Hitler's rationale for invading Poland was because Poland was supposedly about to attack Germany. His reason was expanding the Reich.)

One would think if China was so gung-ho about expanding its territory it would pick someplace a bit larger than Taiwan.

What makes you think they have any intention of stopping at Taiwan?

And why would they?
England didn't stop after their first expansionist conquest...
Spain didn't...France didn't...Rome didn't...the Ottomans didn't...the Reich didn't.... the Soviets didn't...America didn't...

But maybe the Chinese will be a kinder gentler superpower, with no expansionist game plan...?

 

[Hutch]

What makes you think they have any intention of stopping at Taiwan?

And why would they?
England didn't stop after their first expansionist conquest...
Spain didn't...France didn't...Rome didn't...the Ottomans didn't...the Reich didn't.... the Soviets didn't...America didn't...

But maybe the Chinese will be a kinder gentler superpower, with no expansionist game plan...?

Depends if China sees it as expansionist or returning a 'rebellious' province to control of the Mainland Government (only example I can think of at this hour is France and Corsica, which periodically has slipped from France's grasp, only to be re-integrated into the mother country (If I am wrong, Euro-historians,please catch me).

In general, China has not been an expansionist power over it's long history, in fact it has been more invaded (Mongols, Japanese, Russians, Euros, et. al.) than invading--albeit the early Mao years showed agressvie moves around India-Pakistan)

And while we don't sell weapons to China, I'm a lot of those Boeing Airliners we've been selling the Chinese could act as rapid troop deployment aircraft if needed......

 

[crimresearch]

"...In general, China has not been an expansionist power over it's long history, in fact it has been more invaded (Mongols, Japanese, Russians, Euros, et. al.) than invading--albeit the early Mao years showed agressvie moves around India-Pakistan)"

What was the line from that Bruce lee movie...."China is the sick man of Asia'?

But in talking about the modern PRC which spent a lot more of it's efforts building itself to the brink of modern superpower status than it did fighting with its neighbors, I do wonder if the actual reason for Tibet and Guangxi and Taiwan isn't part of an imperialist trend.