Ethics of Tarot Reading.

[Ashles]

... But I am wrestling with my concience over this as I have for years complained about con artists taking peoples money, and fostering the mindset of these kooky beliefs...

I would have thought this is pretty cut and dry.

You have asked people's opinions and they have pretty much all said this is fraud.

It sounds like you really actually do want to do it and are looking for some form of 'permission'.

You won't be getting it here.

If you are pretending to believe in things when you don't and are getting paid money by people without informing them of this then it is fraud.
It is also morally pretty unpleasant.

I think it's time to stop trying to rationalise it as anything but getting money for yourself by deception.
The fact that you'll give refunds if caught doesn't make it any better.

Our advice is - don't do it for both legal and moral reasons.

It's up to you if your desire for the money overrides that advice.

 

[Mr Wolf]

Yeah, thats true.

But where is the line drawn?

Is it up to the performer or the audience to be aware of the deception.

If I believed in the tarot, would I then be a fraud?

If neither my audience or me believed in it and considered it only a performance, would it be a fraud?

I dont think it can be a legal issue, because surely you would need to prove legally that the tarot didnt work.

I agree that as a skeptic and critical thinker I shouldnt do it due to the fact that there are people out there for whom my actions would reenforce their beliefs, but can it really be a legal issue? And yes I was motivated the money.

Has anyone sucessfully sued a medium or psychic?

 

[Mercutio]

Yeah, thats true.

But where is the line drawn?

Is it up to the performer or the audience to be aware of the deception.

So why ask us?

If I believed in the tarot, would I then be a fraud?

Moot point, I hope. You do not. It is fraud.

If neither my audience or me believed in it and considered it only a performance, would it be a fraud?

It would then be simple cruelty. I have seen readings on paltalk get out of hand very quickly. Are you prepared for the person who is making major decisions (finance, love, life itself) based on your entertainment?

I dont think it can be a legal issue, because surely you would need to prove legally that the tarot didnt work.

Yeah, I guess if you don't get caught it is ok. Morals are for losers. Only suckers do the right thing.

I agree that as a skeptic and critical thinker I shouldnt do it due to the fact that there are people out there for whom my actions would reenforce their beliefs, but can it really be a legal issue? And yes I was motivated the money.

Prostitution is more honest.

Has anyone sucessfully sued a medium or psychic?

Do you really care? If you could get away with murder, would you do it?

 

[Chocolate Chip]

Thoughts?

Pretty much what most have said, if you're going to do it, tell the client this is only for entertainment. Tell them in a clear way too. Not telling the client is fraud pure and simple, and there is always the risk of trouble with the law, albeit small as it may be.

Originally posted by Mr Wolf
Maybe I should stick to the juggling.

Good idea. Could it be possible to get hired by a circus, or carnival of some kind? Hire out to kids parties, stuff like that?

If your hard up for cash, why not do what alot of other students do, look for a job!! You know, the help wanted ads, a placement agency, an employment councillor, handing out resumes door to door even. Why do you even have to consider bilking people of their money?

 

[dann]

I've occasionally considered taking my pack of Tarot cards and my crystal ball along to the local Psychic Fair, and doing cold readings of people. At the end I would tell them that regardless of how accurate they thought I was, I did not have psychic powers and neither did anyone else. Then I would refund them the money they paid for the session.

I planned this for a little while, but then I figured that once the organisers got wind of what I was doing I'd be kicked out of the fair.

Would that be so bad? Now all you need is a journalist and a photographer!

 

[Ladewig]

No one is going to pay 12 quid for a reading full of disclaimers and denials. So forget trying to hedge it all. Either do it or don't do it, but don't pretend that there is a middle way that is both profitable and ethical.

If you do decide to go through with it, then my advice is to go all the way to the dark side. Why bother with cold reading when warm reading and hot reading are so easy in the situation that you describe? Go on the internet and gather information. Go to the client's house and talk to neighbors. Have a friend pretend that his car broke down in front of the client's house and ask the client if he can come in a use the telephone - a lot of information can be gained just by looking around the house. If you are going to throw away your ethics, then do it for 120 quid per head instead of 12 quid per head.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

For everyone: What if the tarot reader made it clear that they were presenting the Tarot reading purely as a symbolic mechanism to assist sitters with thinking through their situation and their goals in life, and not as in any way an attempt to divine anything by supernatural means?

 

[Z]

For everyone: What if the tarot reader made it clear that they were presenting the Tarot reading purely as a symbolic mechanism to assist sitters with thinking through their situation and their goals in life, and not as in any way an attempt to divine anything by supernatural means?

\

That's what I do. But I never charge for readings. I feel it's unethical.

 

[Dr Adequate]

I work with a bird of prey rescue centre, and we are currently arranging a sort of medieval fair. With demonstrations of Falconry, Archery and that sort of stuff. I may do a stall there with the proceeds going to the charity, just to see what it is like.

You could have some fun with that. Predict a murrain on their cattle, the black death, and an invasion by the wicked French. If you make it sufficiently medieval, you won't be fooling anyone, and can take their money, especially for charitable purposes, with a clear conscience.

Here's a good piece of cold reading for anyone under thirty: "The cards fortell a fat middle-aged balding man who constantly tells you what to do. Beware of him." If they exclaim "That's my teacher/headteacher/boss/bank manager" then continue: "The cards say that he's a witch..." And if they don't recognise the description --- then you used the word "fortell", didn't you?

 

[Dr Adequate]

For everyone: What if the tarot reader made it clear that they were presenting the Tarot reading purely as a symbolic mechanism to assist sitters with thinking through their situation and their goals in life, and not as in any way an attempt to divine anything by supernatural means?

Then we should still be left with the question of whether this was more or less effective than other methods, such as having a bit of a think, or talking it over with the more sensible of your friends, or doing some research to see what others have done in the same situation. How useful is it, after all, to introduce a random element into what I would wish to be a rational decision-making process? What happens if the correct solution to my problem is one which any level-headed person could have told me, but which cannot be given as an interpretation of the cards I happen to get dealt?

There seems to be a strong likelihood (a priori) that if nothing supernatural is involved, decisions made with the "aid" of the cards would tend to be worse than those made by other methods, because it introduces consideration of irrelevant facts (the particular cards dealt) into the decision-making process.

I don't know of any experimental data on this subject, though.

 

[Z]

Rather, it is more the introduction of facts that, at first, seem irrelevant; but which may turn out to be just the key needed to come to the right conclusion.

Yeah. That's it.

 

[Dr Adequate]

Rather, it is more the introduction of facts that, at first, seem irrelevant; but which may turn out to be just the key needed to come to the right conclusion.

Yeah. That's it.

But if the fall of the cards is random, then the fact that I turn over, say, the seven of coins, is not relevant, and the attempt to fit it in with the actual facts of the case when I try to come to a decision will be at best useless labour and at worst actually misleading.

 

[Z]

That's certainly one way to look at it.

But let's say you're looking at why you're having trouble completing a project at work, and in turning cards you pull up one that speaks about passion, relationships, sex; no, on the surface, it has nothing to do with your project. But perhaps, by someone/something randomly bringing that up, you might realize that you're being terribly distracted by something in your personal life, or something along those lines.

Of course, not every card turn applies. But the methodology can work - for or against, I'll admit - in very strange ways.

Some folks read Bible passages 'for inspiration'. This is much the same thing. Others might try to 'tune out' their problems and watch TV - and end up doing the same thing based on something they saw on television.

Not everyone can see a problem they're facing from all available angles. Very few are trained to analyze a situation fully. Few realize just how integrated their lives really are. A missed cup of coffee in the morning can change whether or not you get promoted at work; subconscious worries about a sick relative might be an unrealized block in trying to woo your current love interest.

Personally, I hate psychology; but there is something to it, and different folks prefer different tools to use psychology on themselves.

Of course, you might also mis-interpret these random cards; the real trick is recognizing the potential for error in any line of thought. Just because you turn up a dark-haired, dominating female who is 'against you' in the layout doesn't mean you should immediately distrust your dark-haired boss at work. You may not even know someone like that; in which case, you assign that bit a 'meaningless' status, and push it aside.

I've done a fair bit of writing, and it occurs to me that tools like tarot or runes are a lot like pre-writing exercises. If you get writer's block, and just have to do something, you might write about a different subject altogether, or try word-association, or dozens of other interesting techniques. It's much the same - sifting through the ol' grey matter for some speck you hadn't noticed before, essentially. Like a holistic search engine.

 

[clarsct]

Greed, Temptation, Lawyerspeak. The Dark Side are these.

Beware! Of your feelings, be mindful, young Padawan. Let the skepticism FLOW through you.

If you turn to the Dark Side, the forever will it control your destiny. Resist, you must!

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

But if the fall of the cards is random, then the fact that I turn over, say, the seven of coins, is not relevant, and the attempt to fit it in with the actual facts of the case when I try to come to a decision will be at best useless labour and at worst actually misleading.

Playing Devil's Advocate here, you might well have some insight into a problem you are having if you consider it from a bizarre angle. It sounds like something Edward de Bono would do, for instance. We humans are very good at finding patterns in random data, which is why things like the I Ching and the Tarot are effective tools for fraud in the first place.

It seems to me that the worst possible outcome is a nonsensical fit between the cards and your problems which you can then ignore. That's no worse an outcome than if you went to a psychologist who couldn't help you, and it's cheaper (as it should be given you aren't a psychologist).

 

[DavoMan]

I hate the whole attributing honesty to skeptism. Im as dishonest as it comes. My latest gag tricked a guy out of a new computer. I dont care about other peoples' feelings.

I have often thought about setting up a fake tarrot reading thing to rake in some money. Only thing is, it would make enemies of my friends at the JREF forums.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

I hate the whole attributing honesty to skeptism. Im as dishonest as it comes. My latest gag tricked a guy out of a new computer. I dont care about other peoples' feelings.

I have often thought about setting up a fake tarrot reading thing to rake in some money. Only thing is, it would make enemies of my friends at the JREF forums.

Might as well go for the tarot reading thing, I suspect you just made enemies of most of us anyway.

Fraud is wrong. Fraud with supernatural trappings is wrong because it is fraud, not because it has supernatural trappings.

 

[DavoMan]

Supernatural stuff is one thing, Fruad is another. If there is a way to cash in on stupidity of others, I'm all for it.

Normally I leave my ethics out of the JREF forums. This thread is an execption, re the title.

I'm more or less submitting that being a 'skeptic' of something doesnt imply any kind of moral code. I'm sure you could find a couple of 'skeptics' on this forum who hate each other.

 

[LotusMegami]

You could, after doing readings at a party, explain to everyone how cold reading works, and how you used it to tell fortunes.

Or to be more gentle, talk about how the cards are symbolic, and could help people look at their problems in new ways.


Or you could use this tarot deck:
http://www.geocities.com/lotusmegami/tnatarot.html

 

[davefoc]

It seems with skill and tact you might be able to create an act that entertained and informed people about the history and reality of tarot cards.

The problem I see is how to deal with an audience that expects to have their gullibility pandered to. I am thinking about somebody like my sister in law who seems to routinely have woo woo in her life. She is religious, studies tarot cards, etc. She is very excited to be going to a John Edward show and she comes to see your little show and finds somebody trying to tell her nicely that this is all a bunch of crap. I don't know how she'd react but it's always been a part of her life and I wouldn't expect a very positive reaction from her.

My wife and I met a fellow at the last TAM who was making a living doing something like this. He put on a magic act for schools that had skepticism as a theme. I am sorry I don't remember his name but he might be a good contact for some thoughts on this subject.

This is also the kind of question that Randi might have something interesting to say about. You might write him and see if he'll respond.