Almo
Masterblazer
That field has an estimated 8 billion barrels. If they can get it all, that powers the US for...
That field has an estimated 8 billion barrels. If they can get it all, that powers the US for...
The energy density of gasoline is is over 44% higher than ethanol by volume. It's not clear to my how any amount of engine redesign can overcome that margin.
LTC8K6
Penultimate Amazing
E85 is nothing but a joke, imo. How it ever got any support is beyond me, even considering the corn lobby.
There's also the fact that ethanol and water will mix, which creates infrastructure problems.
Ethanol just is not the answer at all for the US, imo.
There's also the fact that ethanol and water will mix, which creates infrastructure problems.
Ethanol just is not the answer at all for the US, imo.
I found some old publications (1993, 1995) about the cost and energy ratio of producing ethanol.
Since these were before the current political issues, and current gas prices, I hope they reflect reality more than the dubious claims of late.
To sum up a bunch of long and complex equations and calculations, growing crops to produce ethanol is profitable, even without Government help.
The worst return is to use petroleum based fertilizers, and petroleum for heat.
The highest return is from rotating crops instead of fertilizing, use the plant waste for heat and mulch, make biodiesel from the oil (corn and soybeans), which is used to run farm equipment, and sell the ethanol locally, rather than shipping it any distance.
Doing all that can make the same land and water available, 3 times more profitable than just growing crops for feed or oil production.
Utilizing the fermentation method discovered in Brazil, profits can be increased another 15%.
Profits also rise as Oil prices increase, because costs remain flat while gas and diesel prices rise. Added benefit is independence and continued fuel supply if a disruption occurs in oil distribution.
Downside is, even with all that, there isn't enough water to turn even marginal lands into fuel production. Using fast growing trees for ethanol could boost production to supply 10% of vehicle use, but this still doesn't meet heating fuel demand.
Interesting times, interesting times.
If anyone can find online publications on this, it would be appreciated.
Since these were before the current political issues, and current gas prices, I hope they reflect reality more than the dubious claims of late.
To sum up a bunch of long and complex equations and calculations, growing crops to produce ethanol is profitable, even without Government help.
The worst return is to use petroleum based fertilizers, and petroleum for heat.
The highest return is from rotating crops instead of fertilizing, use the plant waste for heat and mulch, make biodiesel from the oil (corn and soybeans), which is used to run farm equipment, and sell the ethanol locally, rather than shipping it any distance.
Doing all that can make the same land and water available, 3 times more profitable than just growing crops for feed or oil production.
Utilizing the fermentation method discovered in Brazil, profits can be increased another 15%.
Profits also rise as Oil prices increase, because costs remain flat while gas and diesel prices rise. Added benefit is independence and continued fuel supply if a disruption occurs in oil distribution.
Downside is, even with all that, there isn't enough water to turn even marginal lands into fuel production. Using fast growing trees for ethanol could boost production to supply 10% of vehicle use, but this still doesn't meet heating fuel demand.
Interesting times, interesting times.
If anyone can find online publications on this, it would be appreciated.
I'm not sure what fermentation method you're referring to. As I understand it, the improved energy balance is primarily a benefit of the use of sugarcane rather than corn as a feedstock. Before too long, economic methods of producing ethanol from cellulose may become viable, and that will change things quite a bit, but we're not there yet. I can't imagine why you'd be having any trouble finding online publications dealing with this. The real trick seems to be more with finding time to read them.
LTC8K6
Penultimate Amazing
Ethanol doesn't want to ignite in the cold, does it?
LTC8K6
Penultimate Amazing
How long to recoup the added cost of the mods? Right now, E85 doesn't cost any less.
With the increased compression ratios? What exactly are you asking for? To modify an existing engine to use that? Can't be done. To build a new engine to handle that? Marginally higher, it's really just a matter of a slightly longer shaft and possibly slightly more rugged materials.
The major cost is that an engine with that ratio could not use gasoline. Period.
You know, I never did start a topic about that.
http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/abstract.cgi/bipret/2007/23/i05/abs/bp070078k.html
Before anyone starts freaking out, it appears the magnetism acts on the mixing of the medium and the yeast, it isn't causing the yeast to change their metabolism or anything.
Still pretty amazing.
JEROME DA GNOME
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Now, if I were to estimate how much oil I just found, I would estimate low as I would not desire to disrupt the futures market.
You may be forgetting something. Your first problem isn't what's happening in the futures market. Your first problem is that the oil isn't going to do you any good as long as it remains in the ground. Getting it out of the ground is going to take some equipment, and lots of it. Expensive equipment. You aren't going to want to pay for all that equipment out of pocket. You're going to want to pay for it on credit. In obtaining that credit, your best interests would be much better served by overestimating the size of the reserve than by underestimating it.
JEROME DA GNOME
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No, because if you overestimate the size and the market falls then the lender will understand that you will not be able to pay your debt as the product does not carry enough profit to pay the loan.
I see evidence here that fingers have been playing across a keyboard, but no evidence that much brain activity was involved. If you really thought that the market was prone to taking a dive on the announcement of one more "huge" unconventional petroleum source, then it's clear that you don't have the first clue about the economics of petroleum extraction, and also that you haven't paid much attention to related news events in the last couple of years. I'm going to strongly recommend that you stay completely away from the commodities futures market.
Jerome posted. To be frank, what the hell did you expect?
JEROME DA GNOME
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This is a thread about ethanol. One mention of oil, and look what happens.
Arguing over oil futures and the cost of drilling.
Meanwhile somebody is cooking up a big vat of mash, making some ethanol, and pouring into their car. Moonshiners.
Outlaws.
Arguing over oil futures and the cost of drilling.
Meanwhile somebody is cooking up a big vat of mash, making some ethanol, and pouring into their car. Moonshiners.
Outlaws.
Now for my 2 Cents.
The first model T and several other vehicles did run off of Ethanol and lasted a very long time without any engine issues due to running ethanol. They never had problems with the corrosive abilities ask anyone that has rebuilt or restored one.
There are a couple of reasons we stopped using ethanol one of which is prohibition. At that time the government was looking for a fuel to replace ethanol to decrease the need and amount in the US. The other main reason is that at the time oil was cheaper and more available and we did not have to have it shipped from foreign countries. Now we are stuck trying to find our way back to ethanol again but everything produced must be denatured so it cannot be consumed. Also to add Ethanol in its purest form is 115 octane and E85 is 105 octane.
STOP TALKING ABOUT ETHANOL FROM CORN
Ethanol no longer comes from strictly corn as many people believe. In years to come, corn will become obsolete in the ethanol market. Corn simply provided the funding for further research in developing alternative fuels and will be slowly fazed out. Only the future can tell how much ethanol we will use in our everyday life, but I believe it is here to stay for quite some time. Ethanol is now being produced from the following materials.
* Switch Grass
* Whey Permeate
* Bald Tires
* Flat Soda / Beer
* Garbage
* Algae
* Wood Chips
* Lawn Clippings
* and basically any other organic material.
I have 2 articles listed on driveflexfuel.com/news.php on the subject of garbage and Whey Permeate that you may enjoy reading. I also talked to a man in South Carolina that works for a company that creates Corn Hybrids and they are about to release a new hybrid that contains the enzymes to break its self down under heat and pressure. These technologies are greatly improving the amount of ethanol produced everyday and it is people that are placing there money into oil instead of investing in Ethanol that are slowing the development down.
I spent an hour trying to find the article I wanted to link here but it was information everyone needs to know about. Everyone always talks about how much energy it takes to produce ethanol and what it takes to do so but have any of you sat down and looked at how much energy it takes to create gasoline. I Bet not. When looking at the BTUs of creating a fuel vs BTUs used the numbers would shock you. It actually takes aprox. 15% more energy to create gasoline than you get out of it. However, when creating ethanol there is aprox. 35% increase in production over consumption. I will continue to look for the article I know I have it somewhere in my files.
The last thing I wish to mention in this post is how we could be an independent country again. This country was founded by people that wish to become independent and we are now being controlled indirectly by foreign oil. We are currently purchasing oil from places who's people wish to kill us. We are also receiving threats that our oil will be cut off from others. Do we sit back and take the threats or do we do something about it. I say lets produce our own fuel and keep the money here so our people can strive once again.
The first model T and several other vehicles did run off of Ethanol and lasted a very long time without any engine issues due to running ethanol. They never had problems with the corrosive abilities ask anyone that has rebuilt or restored one.
There are a couple of reasons we stopped using ethanol one of which is prohibition. At that time the government was looking for a fuel to replace ethanol to decrease the need and amount in the US. The other main reason is that at the time oil was cheaper and more available and we did not have to have it shipped from foreign countries. Now we are stuck trying to find our way back to ethanol again but everything produced must be denatured so it cannot be consumed. Also to add Ethanol in its purest form is 115 octane and E85 is 105 octane.
STOP TALKING ABOUT ETHANOL FROM CORN
Ethanol no longer comes from strictly corn as many people believe. In years to come, corn will become obsolete in the ethanol market. Corn simply provided the funding for further research in developing alternative fuels and will be slowly fazed out. Only the future can tell how much ethanol we will use in our everyday life, but I believe it is here to stay for quite some time. Ethanol is now being produced from the following materials.
* Switch Grass
* Whey Permeate
* Bald Tires
* Flat Soda / Beer
* Garbage
* Algae
* Wood Chips
* Lawn Clippings
* and basically any other organic material.
I have 2 articles listed on driveflexfuel.com/news.php on the subject of garbage and Whey Permeate that you may enjoy reading. I also talked to a man in South Carolina that works for a company that creates Corn Hybrids and they are about to release a new hybrid that contains the enzymes to break its self down under heat and pressure. These technologies are greatly improving the amount of ethanol produced everyday and it is people that are placing there money into oil instead of investing in Ethanol that are slowing the development down.
I spent an hour trying to find the article I wanted to link here but it was information everyone needs to know about. Everyone always talks about how much energy it takes to produce ethanol and what it takes to do so but have any of you sat down and looked at how much energy it takes to create gasoline. I Bet not. When looking at the BTUs of creating a fuel vs BTUs used the numbers would shock you. It actually takes aprox. 15% more energy to create gasoline than you get out of it. However, when creating ethanol there is aprox. 35% increase in production over consumption. I will continue to look for the article I know I have it somewhere in my files.
The last thing I wish to mention in this post is how we could be an independent country again. This country was founded by people that wish to become independent and we are now being controlled indirectly by foreign oil. We are currently purchasing oil from places who's people wish to kill us. We are also receiving threats that our oil will be cut off from others. Do we sit back and take the threats or do we do something about it. I say lets produce our own fuel and keep the money here so our people can strive once again.
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I think that's pretty much inevitable. The economics of ethanol production are deeply intertwined with the economics of oil production -- especially the way it's being done in the US, where the amount of petroleum used in the process represents roughly the same amount of energy as that contained in the end product (depending on how thorough one is in including all of the fuel costs involved). By contrast, the cane ethanol plants in Brazil are not only energy self-sufficient, but produce enough ethanol fuel in the bargain to make that country the leading exporter of that product.
mhaze
Banned
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- 15,718
False.