ESP and Reincarnation

[godless dave]

Intuition, judgement, feeling, guesswork, etc.

None of those are particularly reliable.

 

[BobG]

And don't give us any of that "You can't prove it isn't true so it must be true" crap.

Belief is not proof.

Proving a negative defies logical thinking so I don't expect you to do that. It is up to the proponent of an idea to prove it.

That said, I cannot prove it!

You don't have to have the same beliefs as I have. I don't have to have the same beliefs as you.

Also, there is some hostility in your response.

I've met Randy. He is a neighbor of mine who lives about 15 miles north of me. I went to one of his local magic shows and chatted with him afterwards.

I know his beliefs on this subject and he certainly would disagree with me. I also know that there would be no hostility in his disagreement! Randy is a gentleman.

Bob Guercio

 

[BobG]

None of those are particularly reliable.

Agreed.

 

[BobG]

Folks,

Am I the only one in this crowd who believes in the possibilities of ESP and reincarnation?

If so, I find that very surprising! How can we think critically if everybody is of the same mind. We would all be "yessing" each other to death.

I do believe that some of you reading this thread are even stronger than I am in your beliefs on ESP and reincarnation. Please speak up!

Bob Guercio

 

[Professor Yaffle]

"Get off ma show"

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Bob, Bob, Bob;

What on Earth are you claiming?

What would you say about the "fact" the World was created last Tuesday complete with all our memories about our past life? It is amusing speculation but that's it.

How is any of the "thinking" you have presented about reincarnation any different?

In the case of ESP: there is no unequivocal evidence of it's existence and there is no known mechanism.

Respectfully,

Gord

 

[godless dave]

Folks,

Am I the only one in this crowd who believes in the possibilities of ESP and reincarnation?

If so, I find that very surprising! How can we think critically if everybody is of the same mind. We would all be "yessing" each other to death.

I do believe that some of you reading this thread are even stronger than I am in your beliefs on ESP and reincarnation. Please speak up!

Bob Guercio

Bob, we're skeptics. You already admitted you have no evidence for your belief. Most of the people on this forum deliberatly try not to believe in things that have no evidence to support them.

I don't believe in the possibility of reincarnation. To me, it seems like it contradicts everything we know about the human mind.

I believe that some kinds of ESP don't contradict science and could, theoretically, exist. I don't think they currently exist in humans.

 

[BobG]

Bob, we're skeptics. You already admitted you have no evidence for your belief. Most of the people on this forum deliberatly try not to believe in things that have no evidence to support them.

I don't believe in the possibility of reincarnation. To me, it seems like it contradicts everything we know about the human mind.

I believe that some kinds of ESP don't contradict science and could, theoretically, exist. I don't think they currently exist in humans.

OK. Fair enough.

On the issue of ESP and reincarnation, let's agree to disagree. I have always found this a very pleasant way of ending a disagreement.

By the way. There is a topic that we can probably genuinely agree upon. Religion.

I believe that all religions are man made and that God does not exist.

I'll leave my ranting on that whole subject for another time.

Regards,

Bob Guercio

 

[VisionFromFeeling]

As I see it, ESP, if it exists, would be very difficult to prove.

ESP, extrasensory perception, should be verifiable if it exists, unless it involves the perception of things that themselves have not been proven to exist, like ghosts.

If we have it, it is not extrasensory. It is just be an underdeveoped sense that we have not yet detected.

There is an agreement as to what perception is within human perception, some individuals having worse or having better perception that lies in the margins of this range. Something outside of this range would be extrasensory, such as microscopic vision.

For example, some animals have the sense of detecting electromagnetic fields. If we have this sense, it is certainly not developed to the same extent as these animals that I am referring to.

Exactly. ESP would refer to what humans can do.

Am I the only one in this crowd who believes in the possibilities of ESP and reincarnation? I do believe that some of you reading this thread are even stronger than I am in your beliefs on ESP and reincarnation. Please speak up!

This is a Skeptics Forum, you are not likely to find many here who believe in these unproven things. I choose to believe in reincarnation although I admit that humans have no evidence of it. And I am a paranormal claimant investigating and soon testing a claim of ESP.

I believe that some kinds of ESP don't contradict science and could, theoretically, exist.

ESP if proven would not contradict science.

I don't think they currently exist in humans.

Your belief sounds a lot like belieivng "I'm invisible, unless someone is looking at me."

We are all a pattern of waves until someone looks at us and we collapse into particles. (Quantum Physics)

 

[Fnord]

In what way is it "your" consciousness?

And what leads you to believe that it would be incredibly rare. If there is no way of telling whether it has happened it could happen never, rarely, frequently or always and there would be no way to tell the difference. So on what are you basing your judgement that it is rare?

Intuition, judgement, feeling, guesswork, etc.

You've answered only the first question, so I'll reiterate the others in a more concise form.

Upon what evidence do you base your claims?

 

[Hokulele]

We are all a pattern of waves until someone looks at us and we collapse into particles. (Quantum Physics)

No.

 

[Soapy Sam]

Bob- I think the majority view here is that consciousness is a process- ie a series of brainstates changing in time. Some of the hardline AI fans here would say the hardware is irrelevant and a computer can display consciousness. Others (myself included) suppose it to be an emergent property of living systems , which might be simulated by hardware to some extent. This debate leads off in several directions from there, but I suspect practically everyone here would think that there has to be some hardware substrate to support consciousness- ie it's not disembodiable and does not survive death.
From that POV, it's very hard to see how two brains, perhaps existing centuries apart, composed of different molecules, grown in different wombs, using different genes and food sources in a different environment could, in any theoretical sense, support "the same" consciousness. And that's without getting into subjective qualia , sense of self and a gazillion other complexities. Even two identical twins, while often mentally very alike, are different individuals, and they would be massively more alike than any two brains separated in time.

As for ESP, my own conclusion is pretty well identical to that expressed by Fnord in post 7.

By the way, despite shared similarities of worldview, we still manage to argue like long time married couples here. And not everyone shares the sceptical POV:-The poster named "Vision from Feeling" for instance has her own rather different take on many things...

 

[BobG]

Bob- I think the majority view here is that consciousness is a process- ie a series of brainstates changing in time.

Soapy,

I feel that I have the same consciousness that I had 50 years ago. Sure I'm a lot smarter and my judgment is infinitely better but it's still me.

And if my IQ were to shift 30 points in either direction, it would still be me only I would be either a lot smarter or a lot dumber.

Bob Guercio

 

[arthwollipot]

Bob:

You believe that reincarnation is possible. In those situations where it does happen, exactly what is it that is being reincarnated?

Secondly, you appear to have this belief that reincarnation is possible, even though you also admit there is no evidence for it, and if it does occur, it would be rare. I would like to know why you believe this. What is it that led you to this belief?

 

[BobG]

Bob:

You believe that reincarnation is possible. In those situations where it does happen, exactly what is it that is being reincarnated?

Consciousness.

Secondly, you appear to have this belief that reincarnation is possible, even though you also admit there is no evidence for it, and if it does occur, it would be rare. I would like to know why you believe this. What is it that led you to this belief?

As I stated before in a previous post - Intuition, judgement, feeling, guesswork, etc.

But as I thought about it, you could also add many years of heavy and ponderous comtemplation.

 

[shuttlt]

Bob,

Do you have any argument in favor of your beliefs, or evidence to discuss? If you want to believe in reincarnation because it makes you happy and there is no way to know one way or the other, then fine... so long as you don't go around knocking people on the head safe in the knowledge that they will someday be reincarnated. What more is there to say? Do you want us to provide evidence for/against these things?

 

[BobG]

Bob,

so long as you don't go around knocking people on the head safe in the knowledge that they will someday be reincarnated.

This I have not done!!!

I've been very clear that I think it is a very rare event. In fact, I believe that I've stated in a previous post that, in my opinion, the probability of reincarnation is so small that it may never have even happened.

I'm not telling anybody to die with the expectation that they will be back!!!

Why don't we all agree to disagree on this issue? I've had enough and wouldn't mind leaving it at this time.

This is the most pleasant way of ending a disagreement! How about it?

Bob Guercio

 

[Akhenaten]

There is an agreement as to what perception is within human perception, some individuals having worse or having better perception that lies in the margins of this range. Something outside of this range would be extrasensory, such as microscopic vision.

If it's one of our normal 5 senses with heightened abilities then it's just supersensory. Microscopic vision could conceivably be achieved by a human eye with an abnormal lens.

Extrasensory means detectable by means other than our known senses.

Humans can't do it. None of them. Not one.

Exactly. ESP would refer to what humans can do.

No, as a matter of fact, ESP refers to what humans can't do. That's what the "Extra" part is about, like in "extraterrestrial". Do you know what an extraterrestrial is?

This is a Skeptics Forum, you are not likely to find many here who believe in these unproven things. I choose to believe in reincarnation although I admit that humans have no evidence of it.

How scientific of you.

And I am a paranormal claimant investigating and soon testing a claim of ESP.

Not much evidence of these things either, but that's for a thread about you and this isn't it.

ESP if proven would not contradict science.

Invisible Pink Unicorns, if proven, would not contradict science. They would become a part of it. IPUs are looking better than ESP to get into the text books first.

We are all a pattern of waves until someone looks at us and we collapse into particles. (Quantum Physics)

Horse Hockey

 

[Mashuna]

We are all a pattern of waves until someone looks at us and we collapse into particles. (Quantum Physics)

I looked at a pattern of waves until someone called me and I collapsed at a cool party. (LSD)

 

[BobG]

We are all a pattern of waves until someone looks at us and we collapse into particles. (Quantum Physics)

Let me interject a little bit of trivia here.

Richard Feynam, one of the giants in the field of Physics and specifically Quantum Mechanics, did not understand Quantum Mechanics! He said so!!

This does not surprise me because I don't believe that it is possible for humans to understand Quantum Mechanics. We accept it and work out the mathematics of it but a true understanding such as the concept of velocity (mph) is way beyond us.

Bob Guercio