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ESP and Reincarnation

RoboTimbo said:
Guys,

I have to ask a question here!

Don't you need people with opinions that differ from your own? How else are you going to be able to have critical discussions.

It seems to me that without differing opinions, all this forum would amount to is a very big "circle jerk".

I really couldn't understand why I was challenged for being here! That's about all that bothered me.

Bob Guercio

What's the point of differing opinions if they can't be challenged?


That is not what I said.

I said or implied very strongly that I did not mind being challenged for my opinions.

I said that I minded being challenged for being in this forum. It did not make me feel very welcome.

After all, it was intimated at one point that I was a troll!

Bob
 
That is not what I said.

I said or implied very strongly that I did not mind being challenged for my opinions.

I said that I minded being challenged for being in this forum. It did not make me feel very welcome.

After all, it was intimated at one point that I was a troll!

Bob

I welcome differing opinions and the people who bring them. Just be prepared to honestly defend your point of view. People can respect that.
 
Guys,

I have to ask a question here!

Don't you need people with opinions that differ from your own? How else are you going to be able to have critical discussions.

It seems to me that without differing opinions, all this forum would amount to is a very big "circle jerk".

I really couldn't understand why I was challenged for being here! That's about all that bothered me.

Bob Guercio

Of course, all manner of opinions are welcome, however you have to understand, if all anyone did when an opinion was stated, was say, "Yes, good point, maybe we do reincarnate," or "Yes, good point, maybe unicorns are real," or "Yes, good point, maybe Jesus is the only way," this forum would indeed amount to a very big "circle jerk."

It is the fact that opinions are challenged based on their justifications and logic that make this forum interesting and thought-provoking.

People who were suggesting this may be the wrong forum for you, were doing so based on your statement that, by your own admission, your beliefs were not based on evidence or arrived at through critical thinking. Since this is a forum based on critical thinking, they were merely stating you might enjoy yourself more on a different forum. I don't think anyone meant it personally, or to try and make you unwelcome. When people disagree with you, or ask why you believe something, you should not take it personally, it is the entire point of a forum like this to question our beliefs.
 
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People who were suggesting this may be the wrong forum for you, were doing so based on your statement that, by your own admission, your beliefs were not based on evidence or arrived at through critical thinking.

Pardon me but this I never said.

My beliefs were arrived at through years of critical thinking!

Bob Guercio
 
Pardon me but this I never said.

My beliefs were arrived at through years of critical thinking!

Bob Guercio

Bob,

What do you want from us?

Your beliefs are amusing but that's it.

You don't want to discuss or justify them. You do not seem open to any other ideas. My guess is that a great many people who have looked at this thread have never bothered to come back. Post away and put everyone on ignore -- you'll feel much better that way.

Gord
 
Bob,

What do you want from us?

I want you to encourage and not discourage differing ideas and opinions. It will make for a better and more interesting forum.

I know from private email that I have received regarding this thread that others of differing opinions stay away. You should try to reverse that and encourage them to come forward for serious and critical debate.

Thanks for patiently listening to me. This time I mean it when I say that this is my last post in this thread.

Enough said.

Bob
 
I want you to encourage and not discourage differing ideas and opinions. It will make for a better and more interesting forum.

I know from private email that I have received regarding this thread that others of differing opinions stay away. You should try to reverse that and encourage them to come forward for serious and critical debate.

Thanks for patiently listening to me. This time I mean it when I say that this is my last post in this thread.

Enough said.

Bob


OK. Since you won't be participating, maybe I'll have the last word.

The whole damn forum is full of posts of "differing ideas and opinions". We love it for that reason. But, unless the poster is prepared to discuss the where, why and how, it does not help anyone to repeat over and over again that they believe without evidence and that we should shut up when we try to carry on a skeptical conversation. So far I gather that you are an atheist, believe in reincarnation and think "there may be something" to ESP. Whoopee. Innumerable posters have tried to understand why the latter two beliefs and all you repeat is the same thing.

In an earlier post I asked what you thought about "Last Tuesdayism" because it is similar in concept to your speculations. You did not reply. Maybe, it you were prepared to do so, you might have learned something. Or maybe not. :duck:
 
Hey! I just graduated from a Scholar to a Thinker!

Bob
It's based on your post count. You make a certain number of posts, and your title changes.

I've been trying to hold my tongue, but it seems Bob is too good-natured to go off, so I'm gonna do it for him.

What is WRONG with you people?

Seriously. Everything you needed to know about this thread was concluded early on page one -- he has no evidence, is not making a defensible claim, and is merely stating an opinion -- as he was apparently invited to do in the Welcome thread.

Yet you drag the poor guy up and down the skeptical grinder, and then have the gall to accuse him of being an attention whore. He was ready to be done with this thread before the end of page one! It was you people who prolonged it.

Sorry for going off, but really -- the behavior exhibited by (some) skeptics on this thread has been frankly embarrassing. I hope Bob isn't put off by it. I suspect he might learn a lot -- and have a lot to give back -- if he can just get past those who are a little too full of themselves around here.

Okay. 'Nuff said. Now excuse me while I go loosen my shorts.
As a partial defense of my own posts here, I was merely curious. I did not understand how Bob came to the conclusion that he came to, and it fasicnated me. Hence I engaged in some "interrogation" in order simply to understand where he was coming from. I still don't understand how or why someone can decide that something exists that he has no evidence for and that has no discernable effect on the world whatsoever. It's like his choice of one mental state "belief in reincarnation" over another mental state "nonbelief in reincarnation" was totally arbitrary and not based on anything - except that he said that it was. I was curious to find out what the basis of the belief was. But since Bob doesn't want to discuss it further, I'm willing to chalk it up to one of life's mysteries.
 
All members of the forum are able to post their opinion on the thread. Criticizing "religions" while professing one's own magical beliefs will surely invite members of a critical thinking forum to point out one's own hypocrisy. There are many good-natured Christians (or other theists) on this forum who "merely state an opinion," but that does not mean their opinions are somehow off-limits to criticism based on irrationality.

If I start a forum saying televisions work because leprechauns are inside them painting the back of the screen, does saying that I have no evidence mean anyone who criticizes the belief is suddenly "WRONG" and putting me through the "skeptical grinder?"
There's a difference between questioning a person, and putting someone through a grinder. Bob's essentially been accused of being a troll and an attention whore. He's been repeatedly asked the same questions he answered early on page one. I understand people don't like the answers -- I don't like them either. Does that mean we have to hound him?

What the H are you blathering about?

Bob has only been asked questions any poster would be asked. The fact that he cannot provide any rational response is not our fault. :boggled:
He stated early on he could not provide a rational response to such questions. Why hound him about it? It's like a shark feeding frenzy -- people smell blood, they've got to have their piece.

Surely there's a line to be drawn between serious inquiry, and people merely piling on.

As a partial defense of my own posts here, I was merely curious. I did not understand how Bob came to the conclusion that he came to, and it fasicnated me. Hence I engaged in some "interrogation" in order simply to understand where he was coming from. I still don't understand how or why someone can decide that something exists that he has no evidence for and that has no discernable effect on the world whatsoever. It's like his choice of one mental state "belief in reincarnation" over another mental state "nonbelief in reincarnation" was totally arbitrary and not based on anything - except that he said that it was. I was curious to find out what the basis of the belief was. But since Bob doesn't want to discuss it further, I'm willing to chalk it up to one of life's mysteries.
My apologies to those who've been respectful and showed the minimum restraint here. I did not mean to blanket condemn everyone in this thread (though I admit that's pretty much what I did).

And hey, if I'm the only one who's been embarrassed by this thread, so be it. I'll take my thin skin and finger-wagging nannyism and go chase the younguns off somebody else's thread.
 
Ryan,

As the originator of the 'troll' comment, I thought I'd post. Bob has a very unusual posting style. Knowledgeable, and wide eyed and innocent at the same time. Time and again he makes beautifully constructed apparently self-contradictory statements. I find it hard to believe that somebody could post about having arrived at views after years of critical thinking, while claiming that their views are just beliefs that are not supported by any critical thinking, without at least some humorous intent.

He's most welcome to the forum of course. This place pisses me off sometimes for beating people up rather than helping to coax what coherent thoughts there may be out of them.
 
There's a difference between questioning a person, and putting someone through a grinder. Bob's essentially been accused of being a troll and an attention whore. He's been repeatedly asked the same questions he answered early on page one. I understand people don't like the answers -- I don't like them either. Does that mean we have to hound him?

I feel 'hounding' is a bit exaggerating. Think of the usual response here...this thread has been pretty easy going ;). In any case I sure hope I'm not one of those you count as 'hounding', because I can totally second what arthwollipot said earlier about simpy being curious.

He stated early on he could not provide a rational response to such questions. Why hound him about it? It's like a shark feeding frenzy -- people smell blood, they've got to have their piece.

Glad to hear your POV. It's always good to remind oneself of the need to develop better communicating skills. But in this case I think it's more a question of somebody coming to a critical thinking forum claiming to have arrived to a conclusion based on critical thinking, and when asked about his thinking simply giving next to nothing to support his claim - either of the conclusion itself or the thinking which led to it. Of course people want to know more, and since it's simply words on a screen through which we're communicating, it's only natural some questions seem more or less like plain aggressive, even accusing.

Surely there's a line to be drawn between serious inquiry, and people merely piling on.

Possibly, and clearly the line you've drawn was crossed in this thread.

My apologies to those who've been respectful and showed the minimum restraint here. I did not mean to blanket condemn everyone in this thread (though I admit that's pretty much what I did).

As I stated before, at least I tried to be polite. If I failed, I also apologize. Not for asking questions related to topic and being persistent, but for sounding hostile. No intension of that.

And hey, if I'm the only one who's been embarrassed by this thread, so be it. I'll take my thin skin and finger-wagging nannyism and go chase the younguns off somebody else's thread.

Or maybe it's just that the topic of this this thread is something you can relate to? :)

------------------------

Anyway, Bob (hope you're still reading if not participating). I want to thank you for attempting the impossible. Trying to reasonably explain something completely irrational and arbitrary to a bunch of skeptics must be intimidating. But you tried, I give you credit for that.

However, in the end it all boils down to a fairly simple thing. I feel we might have a significantly different meaning for critical thinking. And this is something I'd like to have you pause on a bit. For if your intention is to stay discussing topics on these forums (which I hope you'll do) I suspect you'll unnecessarily run into just more conflicts and even bickering because of your strange version of the meaning for critical thinking.

In my experience, if you claim here you've done some critical thinking, people will expect you to have and provide a fairly clear, even systematic review of exactly that - your thinking. The subject doesn't really matter. You claim you've thought about something, even more so, you claim you've thought about it critically. So when questioned of your thoughts, to be taken seriously you might be expected to give something more as answers than simply 'this is what I believe'. Blind belief and critical thinking, as I see them, are rarely compatible. But I'm glad to learn more every day and wish you all the best on your journey.

Good luck!
 
There's a difference between questioning a person, and putting someone through a grinder. Bob's essentially been accused of being a troll and an attention whore. He's been repeatedly asked the same questions he answered early on page one. I understand people don't like the answers -- I don't like them either. Does that mean we have to hound him?


He stated early on he could not provide a rational response to such questions. Why hound him about it? It's like a shark feeding frenzy -- people smell blood, they've got to have their piece.

Surely there's a line to be drawn between serious inquiry, and people merely piling on.


My apologies to those who've been respectful and showed the minimum restraint here. I did not mean to blanket condemn everyone in this thread (though I admit that's pretty much what I did).

And hey, if I'm the only one who's been embarrassed by this thread, so be it. I'll take my thin skin and finger-wagging nannyism and go chase the younguns off somebody else's thread.

If he posts here, he will get responses.

Neither he or you can, or should be able to, control that. If he does not like the responses then he should stop responding. If he wants to set up his own blog and talk to himself, then no one will prevent him from doing so.
:(
 
Ryan,

As the originator of the 'troll' comment, I thought I'd post. Bob has a very unusual posting style. Knowledgeable, and wide eyed and innocent at the same time. Time and again he makes beautifully constructed apparently self-contradictory statements. I find it hard to believe that somebody could post about having arrived at views after years of critical thinking, while claiming that their views are just beliefs that are not supported by any critical thinking, without at least some humorous intent.

He's most welcome to the forum of course. This place pisses me off sometimes for beating people up rather than helping to coax what coherent thoughts there may be out of them.


I feel 'hounding' is a bit exaggerating. Think of the usual response here...this thread has been pretty easy going ;). In any case I sure hope I'm not one of those you count as 'hounding', because I can totally second what arthwollipot said earlier about simpy being curious.
...snip...
Thank you for these responses. It's nice to get level-headed replies even after I've gone off on a somewhat melodramatic rant.

If he posts here, he will get responses.

Neither he or you can, or should be able to, control that. If he does not like the responses then he should stop responding. If he wants to set up his own blog and talk to himself, then no one will prevent him from doing so.
:(
You are, of course, correct. And Bob has proven himself perfectly capable of responding here, so I'll leave him to it rather than hijack this thread any further.
 
Ryan,

I find it hard to believe that somebody could post about having arrived at views after years of critical thinking, while claiming that their views are just beliefs that are not supported by any critical thinking, without at least some humorous intent.

Shuttlt,

I do want to end this thread but how can I when my credibility is being assailed by your patent falseheads.

That said, kindly show me where I said that my beliefs are not supported by any critical thinking. Furthermore, kindly show me where I have contradicted myself.

I assure you that you can't and it is your credibility at this point which in doubt.

Bob Guercio
 
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Shuttlt,

I do want to end this thread but how can I when my credibility is being assailed by your patent falseheads.

That said, kindly show me where I said that my beliefs are not supported by any critical thinking.
Denver said:It sounds like you're in the same boat with reincarnation
You said:I will say that there is no reason why you should take it seriously; however, I take my beliefs very seriously.
You say:I realize that my thoughts on reincarnation are not scientifically based but must that matter?

So, if there is no reason why anybody else should take reincarnation seriously, yet you take your beliefs seriously, yet they are based on critical thinking. Are the reasons you take this stuff seriously a secret?

In post 49 you seem to imply that your views of reincarnation are based on you appreciation of history, yet in post 37 you say "the probability of reincarnation is so small that it may never have even happened."

You say your views are based on intuition etc... and you acknowledge they are not scientific, yet they are based on years of critical thinking. If you have been thinking critically, please tell us what the nature of those critical thoughts were, or are they a secret?

Furthermore, kindly show me where I have contradicted myself.
See above.

Bob, I'm happy to be proved wrong. I don't mean to beat you up and call you names, I just don't get where you're coming from.
 
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Denver said:It sounds like you're in the same boat with reincarnation
You said:I will say that there is no reason why you should take it seriously; however, I take my beliefs very seriously.
You say:I realize that my thoughts on reincarnation are not scientifically based but must that matter?

So, if there is no reason why anybody else should take reincarnation seriously, yet you take your beliefs seriously, yet they are based on critical thinking. Are the reasons you take this stuff seriously a secret?

In post 49 you seem to imply that your views of reincarnation are based on you appreciation of history, yet in post 37 you say "the probability of reincarnation is so small that it may never have even happened."

You say your views are based on intuition etc... and you acknowledge they are not scientific, yet they are based on years of critical thinking. If you have been thinking critically, please tell us what the nature of those critical thoughts were, or are they a secret?


See above.

Bob, I'm happy to be proved wrong. I don't mean to beat you up and call you names, I just don't get where you're coming from.

I can't believe this!

You claim to be a critical thinker and yet you present a sentence in a post that I made which is totally out of context.

Here is a copying and pasting of said post:

I will say that there is no reason why you should take it seriously; however, I take my beliefs very seriously. People believe in religion. I don't. However, I'm not about to say that some of them don't take their beliefs seriously. This gets me to another thought and for the moderators listening, please give me a warning before kicking me off of this forum. I'm still not sure of how far I can go here. People may say that they believe in a religion but in most cases they don't. They know that they don't believe but they play the game because it is the politically correct thing to do. Brainwashing also plays a role in all of this. The only way that humans can cast all logic aside, which is what they do regarding religion, is for one to have a religion pounded into them from birth. This is expecially true of those that really believe. Death also plays a role in all of this. I do believe that most people enjoy life and do not want to die. Even those that don't enjoy life don't want to die which results from the survival instinct which most of us believe in. Thus, religion allows us to deny death and to believe that we are going to be around forever. Most religions talk of an afterlife so if there is an everlasting afterlife, there is no death. Enough said until I know the limits of this forum because, at this point, I'm sure there are many reading this that don't like what I have to say. I have discussed this in other forums and have gotten kicked out. I'm hoping that this is the forum for discussions of such sensitivity. Bob Guercio
I trust that upon rereading this post you will understand exactly what I meant. If not, I'll be glad to explain it to you!

You made other claims in your post and I choose not to comment on them unless you want me to. If you want me to, I will but believe me I am going to rip your comments to shreds.

You cannot take a word here, a phrase there, another sentence here totally out of context and expect to make a valid argument for a belief.

Do I sound condescending? If not, it's only because you do not see me in person where you would witness my mannerisms and hear the inflections and tones in my speech.

Remember, I know what I wrote much better than you do; you didn't write it! I suggest that you back off in saying that I contradicted myself. You are in a hole and that hole promises to get much deeper and you will eventually be buried!

Bob Guercio
 
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If there's no difference between a reincarnated person and a newly incarnated person, then what is the point of reincarnation in the first place? Reincarnation, under these particular restrictions, doesn't seem to accomplish anything.

In most religions that include reincarnation, the reincarnated spirit is in the process of perfecting itself or learning during each incarnation, so there is a point or a benefit to reincarnation. However, if you start over with a blank slate each lifetime, there doesn't seem to be a point to it any more.

Furthermore, why would reincarnation be rare if there was no notable difference between reincarnation and a new incarnation? If there's no real difference, why not have all new incarnations, or all reincarnations?

Since you don't believe there's a difference, I wonder why you care enough to A) believe in reincarnation and B) defend this belief.
 
Since you don't believe there's a difference, I wonder why you care enough to A) believe in reincarnation and B) defend this belief.

Apology,

I'm sorry but I am no longer commenting on ESP or Reincarnation. I've explained my position and I cannot keep repeating myself!

Bob Guercio
 
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