ESP and Reincarnation

[BobG]

Hi folks,

I got a bit carried away in the "Welcome" forum and Amb suggested that I take my thoughts to a different forum so here I am.

Copying and pasting from the "Welcome Forum" we have:


Originally Posted by amb
Dear Bob. That nice gentleman whose name appears on this forum has a million dollar challenge to anyone who can scientifically prove ESP, or any other super-natural phenomena.
Welcome to this most enlightening of forums.
Thank you Amb.

As I see it, ESP, if it exists, would be very difficult to prove.

The problem is that it either involves left over vanishing senses from our past or newly developing senses for our future. In either case, these senses are very rudimentary and therefore very unreliable.

By the way, the only other oddity that I believe in is reincarnation and that needs to be strongly qualified. I don't believe in ghosts, predicting the future, bending spoons, levitation, etc., etc., etc. I also don't believe in ESP at a distance. I only believe in it close up since, if it exists, I presume that it would be like any one of our other senses, only less developed. We certainly cannot extend our smell to several miles so I wouldn't expect ESP to extend that far either.

I believe in the possibility of reincarnation but I think it is an extemely rare occurrence. In fact, it is so rare that it may never have happened. It's just possible.

Simply put, here I am, so it has happened. Why can't it happen again? What will be the difference in the year 3000AD when I will have been dead for 1000 years and the year 1000AD which was 1000 years before I arrived. Nothing really so if it happened in 1000AD, it could happen in 3000AD.

However, like I said, I think this is very improbable and if it were to occur, you would have no knowledge whatsoever of your former life. You would have no way of knowing that you have been reincarnated.

As I implied in my last post, I could go on and on but I'll give you guys a break. As the new kid on the block, I hope I'm not overdoing it!

Also, am I making any sense?

Bob Guercio

 

[Denver]

Hello Bob and Welcome.

On your comment about reincarnation, if there is no way to verify you have been reincarnated, and no knowledge of your past life, and if it is so rare it might never happen, how could you tell the difference from someone who has been reincarnated, and someone who has not?

It seems like if there is no way to tell a difference, then there is no justification to claim there is a difference. And if there is no way to prove reincarnation, then there is no justification to claim one person has been reincarnated, and another hasn't.

So given that state of affairs, you'd be in the boat of having to assume there is no difference between someone who makes no claims they've been reincarnated, and someone who thinks they have, but also has no proof.

Which kind of leaves you with no justification to claim reincarnation is real, doesn't it?

 

[Ryan O'Dine]

I, too welcome you, Bob.

As for the ESP, perhaps you can you explain why you think it exists, and what form you picture it taking (roughly, how do you think it works? Do you have personal experiences you can relate)?

Might help us understand where you're coming from.

 

[BobG]

Hello Bob and Welcome.

On your comment about reincarnation, if there is no way to verify you have been reincarnated, and no knowledge of your past life, and if it is so rare it might never happen, how could you tell the difference from someone who has been reincarnated, and someone who has not?

You can't tell if someone has been reincarnated because basically there is no difference between one that has and one that hasn't.

It seems like if there is no way to tell a difference, then there is no justification to claim there is a difference. And if there is no way to prove reincarnation, then there is no justification to claim one person has been reincarnated, and another hasn't.

There is no difference so speaking about telling the difference is not valid.

So given that state of affairs, you'd be in the boat of having to assume there is no difference between someone who makes no claims they've been reincarnated, and someone who thinks they have, but also has no proof.

But a person has no way of knowing that they have been reincarnated; therefore thinking it is mindless speculation.

Which kind of leaves you with no justification to claim reincarnation is real, doesn't it?

Disagree. I stand by my original thoughts.

By the way, I tend to think that reincarnation is a very rare event. It is so rare that, even though possible, it may never have occurred.

Gosh! I'm going to love this forum of Randy. I have to be careful that it doesn't take over too much of my life.

Bob Guercio

 

[Denver]

Bob, suppose I also claim you owe me $1000? Sure, it might be possible, but I have no evidence of it, and could not prove it to you or anyone else to whom I made the claim. Should I be taken seriously in my claim? Should I consider I might be wrong about it? Or would you be expected by any reasonable person to pay up, based on my claim as it stands?

It sounds like you're in the same boat with reincarnation. You can claim it's real. But with no evidence, there is no reason it should be taken seriously, is there?

 

[BobG]

I, too welcome you, Bob.

As for the ESP, perhaps you can you explain why you think it exists, and what form you picture it taking (roughly, how do you think it works? Do you have personal experiences you can relate)?

Might help us understand where you're coming from.

If we have it, it is not extrasensory. It is just be an underdeveoped sense that we have not yet detected.

For example, some animals have the sense of detecting electromagnetic fields. If we have this sense, it is certainly not developed to the same extent as these animals that I am referring to.

As an example of these animals that I am referring to, there is a species of birds or butterflies, I don't remember exactly, that migrate by orienting themselves with the earths magnetic field.

I cannot give you any details on the specifics of these senses that I'm talking about because they have not yet been detected and I certainly am not able to use mine if it exists.

I'm not sure how I stated it in my original post but just to clarify my thinking, I'm not saying that these senses exist. They could exist. I don't know but I will not saying that this is impossible.


Bob Guercio

 

[Fnord]

[opinion=WAG]

Extra-Sensory Perception (ESP) is nothing more than a well-developed ability for sub-cognitive judgment - in a word, "Intuition." It's a reflexive mental process that "picks up" on subliminal cues, bypasses conscious reasoning, and delivers a "feeling" to the conscious mind about a situation. It is a learned function - nothing wooish about it.

Everyone has it to a greater or lesser degree, with women seeming to be more able to make intuitive leaps (Woman's Intuition"). This may be due to the way that their brains are hard-wired to be more efficient in associative or relational thinking than a man's brain might be.

There have been times when I've attended interviews of employee candidates, and come away with the feeling that "something" wasn't right about the interviewee. On several occasions, soon after expressing my feelings to HR, they informed me that the candidate was disqualified for drug abuse, a DUI, or a criminal record of domestic violence. I guess that having been raised by an abusive alcoholic (and later marrying another one) has "tuned" my intuition to pick up on alkies, junkies, and those who are prone to commit acts of violence against women and children.

Anyway, ESP as a "psychic" ability simply does not exist. It is simply a mis-understood aspect of pre-cognitive thought processes - processes that the person is simply not conscious of.

[/opinion]

At least, that's what I've come up with on my own, and without any scientific research.

Intuition.

 

[Ryan O'Dine]

So you're saying some non-supernatural forms of ESP and reincarnation could possibly exist -- but you're not making any positive claims, and you have no evidence. Yes?

I think it's interesting to speculate on such things, but if what you're saying is basically 'what's not impossible is possible,' then I'm not sure you're going to get much of a debate going here.

(Then again, this is the JREF forum. )

 

[BobG]

It sounds like you're in the same boat with reincarnation. You can claim it's real. But with no evidence, there is no reason it should be taken seriously, is there?

I will say that there is no reason why you should take it seriously; however, I take my beliefs very seriously.

People believe in religion. I don't. However, I'm not about to say that some of them don't take their beliefs seriously.

This gets me to another thought and for the moderators listening, please give me a warning before kicking me off of this forum. I'm still not sure of how far I can go here.

People may say that they believe in a religion but in most cases they don't. They know that they don't believe but they play the game because it is the politically correct thing to do.

Brainwashing also plays a role in all of this. The only way that humans can cast all logic aside, which is what they do regarding religion, is for one to have a religion pounded into them from birth. This is expecially true of those that really believe.

Death also plays a role in all of this. I do believe that most people enjoy life and do not want to die. Even those that don't enjoy life don't want to die which results from the survival instinct which most of us believe in. Thus, religion allows us to deny death and to believe that we are going to be around forever. Most religions talk of an afterlife so if there is an everlasting afterlife, there is no death.

Enough said until I know the limits of this forum because, at this point, I'm sure there are many reading this that don't like what I have to say.

I have discussed this in other forums and have gotten kicked out. I'm hoping that this is the forum for discussions of such sensitivity.

Bob Guercio

 

[BobG]

[opinion=WAG]

Extra-Sensory Perception (ESP) is nothing more than a well-developed ability for sub-cognitive judgment - in a word, "Intuition." It's a reflexive mental process that "picks up" on subliminal cues, bypasses conscious reasoning, and delivers a "feeling" to the conscious mind about a situation. It is a learned function - nothing wooish about it.

Everyone has it to a greater or lesser degree, with women seeming to be more able to make intuitive leaps (Woman's Intuition"). This may be due to the way that their brains are hard-wired to be more efficient in associative or relational thinking than a man's brain might be.

There have been times when I've attended interviews of employee candidates, and come away with the feeling that "something" wasn't right about the interviewee. On several occasions, soon after expressing my feelings to HR, they informed me that the candidate was disqualified for drug abuse, a DUI, or a criminal record of domestic violence. I guess that having been raised by an abusive alcoholic (and later marrying another one) has "tuned" my intuition to pick up on alkies, junkies, and those who are prone to commit acts of violence against women and children.

Anyway, ESP as a "psychic" ability simply does not exist. It is simply a mis-understood aspect of pre-cognitive thought processes - processes that the person is simply not conscious of.

[/opinion]

At least, that's what I've come up with on my own, and without any scientific research.

Intuition.

I know that everything that you have said about intuition is absolutely true!

I don't believe that the door on ESP, at this time, should be slammed shut.

Bob Guercio

 

[shuttlt]

This gets me to another thought and for the moderators listening, please give me a warning before kicking me off of this forum. I'm still not sure of how far I can go here.

The mods are pretty relaxed. Unless you actively try to get kicked off and ignore multiple warnings you won't be (unless you're a sock puppet or something).

 

[BobG]

So you're saying some non-supernatural forms of ESP and reincarnation could possibly exist -- but you're not making any positive claims, and you have no evidence. Yes?

Exactly.

I think it's interesting to speculate on such things, but if what you're saying is basically 'what's not impossible is possible,' then I'm not sure you're going to get much of a debate going here.

No! It's impossible for me, in this life, to live forever. I'm not about to say that there is a possibility that I, Robert Guercio, will live as Robert Guercio forever.

(Then again, this is the JREF forum. )

I so far, I'm thoroughly enjoying this forum.

Bob Guercio

 

[BobG]

The mods are pretty relaxed. Unless you actively try to get kicked off and ignore multiple warnings you won't be (unless you're a sock puppet or something).

I'm probably not a "sock puppet" but what is that?

Also, believe me, I like contraversy but I have no intentions of getting kicked off of this forum.

Gotta go! Got things to do and I already realize that this forum is addicting to a person like me.

Bob Guercio

 

[IXP]

However, like I said, I think this is very improbable and if it were to occur, you would have no knowledge whatsoever of your former life. You would have no way of knowing that you have been reincarnated.
Bob Guercio[/SIZE]

I fail to see how there is anything left of you, if you are reincarnated in this manner.

IXP

 

[BobG]

I fail to see how there is anything left of you, if you are reincarnated in this manner.

IXP

Your consciousness remains, nothing else.

Bob Guercio

 

[Fnord]

Your consciousness remains, nothing else.

.
There is no verifiable evidence that Raising of the Dead, Reincarnation, Ressurrection, or any other form of people returning from the dead are valid concepts outside of a Bible or a Dungeons & Dragons game.

And don't give us any of that "You can't prove it isn't true so it must be true" crap.

Belief is not proof.

 

[Lanzy]

Your belief sounds a lot like belieivng "I'm invisible, unless someone is looking at me."

 

[Professor Yaffle]

In what way is it "your" consciousness?

And what leads you to believe that it would be incredibly rare. If there is no way of telling whether it has happened it could happen never, rarely, frequently or always and there would be no way to tell the difference. So on what are you basing your judgement that it is rare?

 

[BobG]

In what way is it "your" consciousness?

And what leads you to believe that it would be incredibly rare. If there is no way of telling whether it has happened it could happen never, rarely, frequently or always and there would be no way to tell the difference. So on what are you basing your judgement that it is rare?

Intuition, judgement, feeling, guesswork, etc.

Bob Guercio

 

[BobG]

Your belief sounds a lot like belieivng "I'm invisible, unless someone is looking at me."

I don't think this is true!

Bob Guercio