Erdogan's purge in Turkey

[AlaskaBushPilot]

From this NY Times article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/02/world/europe/turkey-erdogan.html

Right. There is a very old strategy used here, we see it in Pakistan more than any other place - that "publicly" the target country denounces the USA whereas privately, and in reality, they are really wonderful friends. Our lackeys.

Think what it says about the country's residents. What idiots they are, to have this very publicly announced, in the lead national paper of record, for them not to notice. That's how dumb they are. Who is this press catering to? White man's burden American Exceptionalists. And they aren't hard to please with false flattery. Look how smart we are, and how dumb these darkies are.

Residents of Turkey, on the other hand are looking at this crowing on about how stupid they are and it is why the US is held in such low regard. Generally running at about 75% over the long run:

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/10/31/the-turkish-people-dont-look-favorably-upon-the-u-s-or-any-other-country-really/

They're Muslim. Erdogan is shifting towards, not away from, Shariah law. Yes, you are right, the coup was a gift for him.

Of course Turkey plays the US off Russia. But pretending these events are just made-up, that nothing has really changed would be a lot more than naive. Turkey is zealously concerned about the Kurds, and the US has done nothing but arm them, legitimize their territorial claims, and relentlessly portray them as nothing but heroes in the press.

We've done that for our own reasons, namely to keep ISIS contained to Syria. We are not interested in defeating ISIS, but rather using them to overthrow Assad in Syria. We should never have helped create ISIS to begin with and could actually go after the source with Saudi Arabia and the other Sunni Gulf state financiers of ISIS. But instead, we arm the Kurds, which makes Turkey legitimately concerned.

What is the US going to do when the Kurds and Turkey have it out in the aftermath?

 

[Puppycow]

Can I ask a couple questions here?

Um, so who is this Turkish cleric in the United States?
Did he really have anything to do with orchestrating the attempted coup?
If he did, should we extradite him to Turkey?
Why is America being blamed for an attempted coup in Turkey?
Did the CIA (or any other American group) really have anything to do with it?
Is the CIA allowed to do such things? Is the president allowed to tell them to do such things without asking congress?
Turkey is a NATO member. (Not a question, but seems like a relevant fact)

 

[The Great Zaganza]

He is called Gulen and has an estate somewhere in Pennsylvania, I think.
It's not clear he was involved, but graduates from his schools/followers of his brand of Islam most likely were.
As the plotters were mostly military, it's possible that at some point they "informally" asked how the US or the rest of NATO would react to a coup - there is plenty of interchange at various levels between NATO partners.
Even the last thing is speculative (though reasonable IMO).
So we know very little.

What we do know is that for most of their lives, Erdogan and Gulen were comrades-in-arms: together they hatched and implemented a subversion of the military and judiciary by Gulen-followers to break the ideology of Attaturk.
But at some point, Erdogan became too islamistic for Gulen, who self-exilded to the US.
Since then there have been a number of accusations of coups, but they didn't end in convictions.
Some sources say that the coup was triggered by an imminent , massive wave of arrest of Gulen supporters, and that the plotters had to act prematurely.
This would explain how Erdogan had all the lists of plotter to be arrested ready.

 

[McHrozni]

Why is America being blamed for an attempted coup in Turkey?

It's a convenient scapegoat that doesn't retaliate over such accusations, and one who is generally assumed to be behind pretty much anything that is wrong with the world by the ignorant masses.

Did the CIA (or any other American group) really have anything to do with it?

Most unlikely.

Is the CIA allowed to do such things? Is the president allowed to tell them to do such things without asking congress?

I'm sure you'd get ardent supporters for both answers.

Turkey is a NATO member. (Not a question, but seems like a relevant fact)

Yup, but I'm not sure Edrogan is keen on remaining one. He's trying to get real cozy with Putler. NATO has some (informal) standards for membership, and what Edrogan is doing is grossly incompatible with those standards.

McHrozni

 

[McHrozni]

What we do know is that for most of their lives, Erdogan and Gulen were comrades-in-arms: together they hatched and implemented a subversion of the military and judiciary by Gulen-followers to break the ideology of Attaturk.
But at some point, Erdogan became too islamistic for Gulen, who self-exilded to the US.

What is most alarming is that the struggle between two strongest factions in Turkey is not a struggle between the religious and secular factions, it's a struggle between two religious factions, with the secularists being powerless bystanders. Edrogan is purging disloyal Islamists, presumably because the secularists have already been pushed aside and removed as a potential adversary for the foreseeable future.

The latest poll, taken a month after the coup, has the support for AKP at 54% plus another 12% for an allied ultra-nationalist, pro-Islamic party. The two secularist parties have 11% and 22% support respectively (rest is others).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Turkish_general_election

In other words, Gülen served Edrogan well, but now his services are no longer needed. Turkey is already destroyed.

McHrozni

 

[Puppycow]

I found this article to be very informative:

Inside the secretive religious movement that is being blamed for Turkey's attempted coup

Statements from some former members appear to suggest the movement was indeed encouraging its members to gain influence and position in Turkey’s government and business hierarchy.

It is a mandate that critics say stems from Gulen. “You must move in the arteries of the system without anyone noticing your existence until you reach all the power centers,” Gulen said in a 1999 sermon. “You must wait until such time as you have gotten all the state power, until you have brought to your side all the power of the constitutional institutions in Turkey.”

Two years before that sermon, he had offered tacit support for a coup that toppled an elected Islamist government.

“Hiding their true intentions is the most important thing for them, more than anything else,” said Ahmet, a software engineer and former Hizmet member who also asked that his full name not be used.

Ahmet spent 12 years with the movement, including most of his university days, when he lived in Hizmet dormitories. In public, Ahmet said, he was asked to conceal his faith, but in private, he was ostracized for minor infractions such as listening to heavy metal music, or trimming his beard. “Each dorm had a ‘big brother,’ whose real name we did not know,” Ahmet said. “When one of us had doubts, they would be ready with some amazing story of a miracle performed by Gulen.”

A cousin, whom Ahmet had known since childhood, wanted to be a lawyer but was persuaded by Hizmet to join the air force, and was asked to hide his faith to climb the ranks.

“This man who was such a good Muslim served alcohol at his wedding. And he married a secular woman. When I asked him why, he told me he had to because of Hizmet,” Ahmet said.

That does sound rather sinister, doesn't it?

“You must move in the arteries of the system without anyone noticing your existence until you reach all the power centers,” Gulen said in a 1999 sermon. “You must wait until such time as you have gotten all the state power, until you have brought to your side all the power of the constitutional institutions in Turkey.”

There is more there of course, and the other side has its say too, but if that sermon is real, and he really said those things, and the organization really told people to behave this way: to conceal their faith in public so that they could reach high positions in the government. And then there really is an attempted coup and if all the people behind the coup just so happen to be members of this secretive group, I mean, doesn't that suggest a lot? Very sinister. I don't know. Maybe we should extradite Gulen to Turkey. Make them promise he will have a fair trial first, but I'm not comfortable harboring this sort of guy.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

While there may be some true die-hard sleepers, on most such (self) deception backfires: the Soviets lost lots of agents who just dissapeared to become US citizens. Most wealthy Muslims enjoy western luxuries not in line with Sharia.
The expression "fake it till you make it" applies in a reverse way.

 

[McHrozni]

There is more there of course, and the other side has its say too, but if that sermon is real, and he really said those things, and the organization really told people to behave this way: to conceal their faith in public so that they could reach high positions in the government. And then there really is an attempted coup and if all the people behind the coup just so happen to be members of this secretive group, I mean, doesn't that suggest a lot? Very sinister. I don't know. Maybe we should extradite Gulen to Turkey. Make them promise he will have a fair trial first, but I'm not comfortable harboring this sort of guy.

Edrogan and Gülen were bedbuddies until 2007 or so. These sermons describe Edrogans' rise to power reasonably well.

McHrozni

 

[Sideroxylon]

You have to take those words in the context of the Kemalist environment of the time. Being openly pious was a career killer in government or military jobs. A key Conservative hope when the AKP came to power in 2001 was greater religious freedoms of expression - like the wearing of headscarves at university and opening senior roles to openly religious people.

The staunch secular hegemony of that time was almost as undemocratic as the current Erdogan government. That regime stacked judiciary, education boards, senior civil service, and military positions with their own people and locked conservatives out. The early years of the AKP involved a great struggle to get conservatives into these positions. The party even had to struggle for its own existence with a failed legal move to have them closed.

 

[McHrozni]

You have to take those words in the context of the Kemalist environment of the time. Being openly pious was a career killer in government or military jobs. A key Conservative hope when the AKP came to power in 2001 was greater religious freedoms of expression - like the wearing of headscarves at university and opening senior roles to openly religious people.

The staunch secular hegemony of that time was almost as undemocratic as the current Erdogan government. That regime stacked judiciary, education boards, senior civil service, and military positions with their own people and locked conservatives out. The early years of the AKP involved a great struggle to get conservatives into these positions. The party even had to struggle for its own existence with a failed legal move to have them closed.

Judging from what happened to Turkey, it was downright necessary to keep the conservatives down and out.

McHrozni

 

[Sideroxylon]

Judging from what happened to Turkey, it was downright necessary to keep the conservatives down and out.

McHrozni

That was the excuse given by the secular elite of the time for their undemocratic suppressions of the hoi polloi. The AKP will turn Turkey into Iran was something I heard a lot. A conservative governement or even the AKP didn't need to end up where we are now.

 

[McHrozni]

That was the excuse given by the secular elite of the time for their undemocratic suppressions of the hoi polloi. A conservative governement or even the AKP didn't need to end up where we are now.

Unfortunately we'll never know, but since the "excuse" used for informal repression of the conservatives turned out to be a very real reason once they came to power, calling it an excuse seems unjustified, or at least exaggerated to some extent.
In retrospect, they were right. Whether or not this was caused by their repression is a matter of debate and eventually alternative history enthusiasts. Suffice to say though that Atatürk wasn't an outstanding democrat on these issues, and I imagine he knew why.

McHrozni

 

[Sideroxylon]

The AKP provided more than a decade of good governance while going through the EU accession program. In my view, the beginning of the end was the 2013 corruption scandal which forced the governement into a struggle for survival and keeping people out of prison.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_corruption_scandal_in_Turkey

 

[McHrozni]

The AKP provided more than a decade of good governance while going through the EU accession program. In my view, the beginning of the end was the 2013 corruption scandal which forced the governement into a struggle for survival and keeping people out of prison.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_corruption_scandal_in_Turkey

The corruption didn't begin with the scandal, it was concealed behind the good economic times. However a government that responded to the uncovered corruption of it's members by a coup (which is what the post-coup actions of the AKP amount to) wasn't fit to rule in the first place.

McHrozni

 

[Sideroxylon]

Of course it didn't begin then. This was an unmasking of the activities of a government (or at least affiliated people) who campaigned and came to power on an anti corruption platform. The Justice and Development Party's (AKP) name can be read as the AK (clean) Party. The breaking of this scandal may have forced them into survival actions that have been very different from the democratic path they had begun on.

 

[McHrozni]

Of course it didn't begin then. This was an unmasking of the activities of a government (or at least affiliated people) who campaigned and came to power on an anti corruption platform. The Justice and Development Party's (AKP) name can be read as the AK (clean) Party. The breaking of this scandal may have forced them into survival actions that have been very different from the democratic path they had begun on.

It didn't force them into anything. They themselves chose the path of destroying the Turkish democracy for the sake of keeping quite a few crooked members of theirs out of prisons. If you run on an anti-corruption platform, and you turn out to be just as corrupt as your opponents in a scandal, nothing was "forced" upon you.

McHrozni

 

[Sideroxylon]

Nm

 

[Klimax]

It didn't force them into anything. They themselves chose the path of destroying the Turkish democracy for the sake of keeping quite a few crooked members of theirs out of prisons. If you run on an anti-corruption platform, and you turn out to be just as corrupt as your opponents in a scandal, nothing was "forced" upon you.

McHrozni

Agreed. There are always two options or more. They choose to protect their corrupted members. They could have always eliminate and use it as proof how anti-corruption they are. ("Look, we don't tolerate any corruption, not even inside our ranks!")

 

[CapelDodger]

That was the excuse given by the secular elite of the time for their undemocratic suppressions of the hoi polloi. The AKP will turn Turkey into Iran was something I heard a lot. A conservative governement or even the AKP didn't need to end up where we are now.

One time out of one it did, and not just because of the coup. That just expedited matters. Erdogan was already on this path.

 

[Sideroxylon]

One time out of one it did, and not just because of the coup. That just expedited matters. Erdogan was already on this path.

Some elements were there, like the intolerance of criticism but that is pervasive in Turkish culture. The Kemalists had laws that would see you locked up for insulting Ataturk or Turkishness.

I have no interest in making a defence of the AKP and I have said all I want to against the claim that any conservative government was doomed to fail. The only point I care for above is the important context for the words in Gullen's sermon.