Erdogan's purge in Turkey

TubbaBlubba said:
It's getting to a point where I would find it hard to see the EU accepting Turkey as long as Erdogan is in power. He's accumulating political power to a point where he could ostensibly comply with a lot of regulations while still ruling as he sees fit.
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The way things stand now Turkey will need another Ataturk before it has a chance of EU membership. The prospect of membership will likely continue to be used as a carrot for a while, in order to attempt some sanity in Turkish politics, but I doubt it will be effective.

The example of Turkey clearly shows how toxic Islam is to a nation. Turkey has been secularized 70 years ago, and Islamists came to power multiple times through elections. This time they seized power in a coup, possibly for good - and this is despite bordering on three countries traumatized and emasculated by Islamists.

If it hurt Syria and Iraq and Iran and Saudi Arabia and Lebanon and Palestine and Egypt and Libya and Tunisia and Algeria and Iran and Yemen and Pakistan and Bangladesh and Afghanistan in the past two decades while benefiting no country anywhere, chances are rather good this same approach to politics will hurt Turkey too. How stupid do you have to be not to see it plain as day anyway? And yet, just before the coup, AKP had 52% popular support. A further 12% supported neo-fascist NMP, who has likewise adopted an Islamist, anti-secularist stance. In reality, only about 1 in 4 turks even support a party with secularist values, plus another 10% or so support a Kurdish party with secularist values. Despite the horrible things done by Islamists in Turkey and in Turkish neighbors, supporters for Islamists outnumber the sane opposition 2:1.

Let that sink in for a moment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Turkish_general_election

McHrozni
 
Darth Rotor said:
The Americans sent their dependents home from military bases in turkey back in March. If the Americans were sensing seismic disturbances, Erdogan and his inner circle saw more.

So, they made a plan, on what to do and how to do it when the next coup attempt happens.

A coup attempt happened.
The had a plan.
They executed it.

Not Rocket Science.
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I forgot about the dependents being sent home until you mentioned it. Perhaps it is a sign that that the intelligence agencies saw something was imminent.

Gülen is promounced ilke GOO-LEN. In Turkish "ğ" changes the sound of the preceding vowel. "G" is always pronounced as a hard g.
I stick by what I said in the other thread. I don't think Erdoğan Ever reallly wanted EU membership. In the first couple of years after he came to power, it seemed membership at some level was imminent. Some of the conditions set would have been a bit difficult but could have been done if it membership really was desired. Cyprus for example, Turkey could have bitten the bullet and just left the place. it has served Erdoğan and the Islamists better to play the "Look at what the EU wants us to do, they're making it hard because they don't like Muslims" card.

Also, it funny that LOTR was mentioned. A guy was convicted of insulting the President after posting pictures of Erdoğan and Gollum side by side. The resemblance is amazing. Actually, that's not very funny, is it.
 
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FenerFan said:
I forgot about the dependents being sent home until you mentioned it. Perhaps it is a sign that that the intelligence agencies saw something was imminent.
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Well, if US and other intelligence agencies knew something like this was up, it would be very, very odd if Turkish intelligence didn't know about it, either through their own sources or through sharing of information from NATO allies. LIHOP is a done deal.

Also, it funny that LOTR was mentioned. A guy was convicted of insulting the President after posting pictures of Erdoğan and Gollum side by side. The resemblance is amazing. Actually, that's not very funny, is it.
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The "insulting the president" card is played often and hard by this Erdogan it seems. On the upside, he set himself up as a single point of failure, if he goes, AKP most likely goes too. The only question is whether he'll be able to destroy the countries institutions sufficiently for Turkey to become irrecoverable then or not.
The events of last weekend lean strongly on the judgment of "yes, he already has" :(

McHrozni
 
Darth Rotor said:
The Americans sent their dependents home from military bases in turkey back in March. If the Americans were sensing seismic disturbances, Erdogan and his inner circle saw more.

So, they made a plan, on what to do and how to do it when the next coup attempt happens.

A coup attempt happened.
The had a plan.
They executed it.

Not Rocket Science.
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I wonder if that will feed into the conspiracy theories.

Notice, there is no "mildly" adverb to modify Islamist. Whereas the Economist used to regularly do this.
 

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angrysoba said:
Dammit. Meant to attach this one:
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Blaming the US for everything seems to be a common theme whenever anything is going wrong anywhere Islamic. Even when the US condemns a coup and clearly doesn't help it when it could, it's still US fault.

I mentioned before how toxic Islam is to a nation? Breeding such retardism is a good example.

McHrozni
 
Here is the tally so far:

Turkish media announced that:
15,200 teachers and other education staff had been sacked
1,577 university deans were ordered to resign
8,777 interior ministry workers were dismissed
1,500 staff in the finance ministry had been fired
257 people working in the prime minister's office were sacked
Turkey's media regulation body on Tuesday also revoked the licences of 24 radio and TV channels accused of links to Mr Gulen.
The news came on top of the arrests of more than 6,000 military personal and the sackings of nearly 9,000 police officers. About 3,000 judges have also been suspended.

From here:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36842073
 
McHrozni said:
The way things stand now Turkey will need another Ataturk before it has a chance of EU membership. The prospect of membership will likely continue to be used as a carrot for a while, in order to attempt some sanity in Turkish politics, but I doubt it will be effective.

The example of Turkey clearly shows how toxic Islam is to a nation. Turkey has been secularized 70 years ago, and Islamists came to power multiple times through elections. This time they seized power in a coup, possibly for good - and this is despite bordering on three countries traumatized and emasculated by Islamists.

If it hurt Syria and Iraq and Iran and Saudi Arabia and Lebanon and Palestine and Egypt and Libya and Tunisia and Algeria and Iran and Yemen and Pakistan and Bangladesh and Afghanistan in the past two decades while benefiting no country anywhere, chances are rather good this same approach to politics will hurt Turkey too. How stupid do you have to be not to see it plain as day anyway? And yet, just before the coup, AKP had 52% popular support. A further 12% supported neo-fascist NMP, who has likewise adopted an Islamist, anti-secularist stance. In reality, only about 1 in 4 turks even support a party with secularist values, plus another 10% or so support a Kurdish party with secularist values. Despite the horrible things done by Islamists in Turkey and in Turkish neighbors, supporters for Islamists outnumber the sane opposition 2:1.

Let that sink in for a moment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Turkish_general_election

McHrozni
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Blah blah blah Islam is the root of all evil blah blah blah
 
Sideroxylon said:
Blah blah blah Islam is the root of all evil blah blah blah
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Even comparing Syria and Iraq with Iran is ludricrous. Ba'athism is a relatively secular ideology centered around Arab nationalism. It has more in common with fascism than Khomeini's fringe theological justification for totalitarianism.
 
FenerFan said:
Here is the tally so far:

Turkish media announced that:
15,200 teachers and other education staff had been sacked
1,577 university deans were ordered to resign
8,777 interior ministry workers were dismissed
1,500 staff in the finance ministry had been fired
257 people working in the prime minister's office were sacked
Turkey's media regulation body on Tuesday also revoked the licences of 24 radio and TV channels accused of links to Mr Gulen.
The news came on top of the arrests of more than 6,000 military personal and the sackings of nearly 9,000 police officers. About 3,000 judges have also been suspended.

From here:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36842073
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That is all so sad. There will be many ordinary and wonderful people among them. Well bloody most of them. How the hell could they be reasonably implicated in what occurred? Where is their day in court?
 
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Sideroxylon said:
That is all so sad. There will be many ordinary and wonderful people among them. Well bloody most of them. How the hell could they be reasonably implicated in what occurred? Where is their day in court?
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Absolutely, you lived here and know how most people are, ordinary and nice. I'm sure a lot of them will get their day in court, after they've sat around jobless and desperate. Plus, when they do get to court, who is going to be sitting on the bench? One of Erdoğan's lackeys.
 
TubbaBlubba said:
Even comparing Syria and Iraq with Iran is ludricrous. Ba'athism is a relatively secular ideology centered around Arab nationalism. It has more in common with fascism than Khomeini's fringe theological justification for totalitarianism.
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You may want to read what Michael Aflaq, one of the main founders of Ba'athism, thought of Islam. His own religion was as you'd expect from a guy called Michael, interestingly enough.

That said, I wasn't referring to Ba'athism as much as I did to ISIS and similar groups. The main difference between ISIS and Iran is a disagreement about which lineage of Mohammed is the correct one to follow, and in that ISIS brags about it's bloody deeds whereas Iran hides them. Other differences are mostly cosmetic and stem from the fact Iranians aren't Arab.

McHrozni
 
FenerFan said:
Absolutely, you lived here and know how most people are, ordinary and nice. I'm sure a lot of them will get their day in court, after they've sat around jobless and desperate. Plus, when they do get to court, who is going to be sitting on the bench? One of Erdoğan's lackeys.
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I know people who were locked up or fired before all this went down. I got to know a lot of military commanders too. Odds are some of those good people have had their lives ruined.

When I first got there i was told how dangerous Gullen was by Kemalists. and I thought it odd in about 2000 when a conservative told me he has a CIA puppet. He seems so mild in all that I have read or heard from him. I thought the reactions by the Kemalists were paranoia and the CIA just another of many conspiracy stories.

And now Gullenists have infiltrated the Army to stage a coup? I don't think I ever met a commander who wasn't a staunch supporter of Attaturks secular legacy. If they had sympathies towards him then hid it well.
 
McHrozni said:
The main difference between ISIS and Iran is a disagreement about which lineage of Mohammed is the correct one to follow, and in that ISIS brags about it's bloody deeds whereas Iran hides them. Other differences are mostly cosmetic and stem from the fact Iranians aren't Arab.

McHrozni
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Sorry, no. ISIS is reviving an anachronistic form of Islamic government from the middle ages due to their apocalyptic beliefs. The core ideology of Iranian islamism is centered around a fringe interpretation of Islamic jurisprudence by Khomeini. Both are autocratic and apply some form of Sharia law, but the aims, means and workings of the two are very, very different.
 
Sideroxylon said:
Isn't that a tired forum trope.
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No, just a statement of fact and some good advice. You don't have to neither like it nor follow it, but it's still true and good advice.

I'm rather fascinated about the zeal of some people in declaring that ideology of a guy who declared summary execution was an appropriate response to someone talking trash about him could ever inspire his followers to summarily execute those who talk bad about him.

Funny thing, this cognitive dissonance.

McHrozni
 
TubbaBlubba said:
Sorry, no. ISIS is reviving an anachronistic form of Islamic government from the middle ages due to their apocalyptic beliefs. The core ideology of Iranian islamism is centered around a fringe interpretation of Islamic jurisprudence by Khomeini. Both are autocratic and apply some form of Sharia law, but the aims, means and workings of the two are very, very different.
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The difference can be summarized thus: whereas ISIS throws homosexuals off tall buildings, Iran prefers to hang them. Whereas ISIS is led by a Caliph, Iran is led by Mullah. Whereas ISIS thinks Islam should start conquering the world right now, Iran thinks the time is not right and they should wait for a better opportunity. Whereas ISIS prefers to send their own people to die to infidels die as well, Iran prefers financing other groups to do the killing.

And so on and on. They aren't identical by any stretch of imagination, but differences are mostly cosmetic in nature. Iran has been around longer and has tried to win western favor, which fully explains some of the differences.

McHrozni
 
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McHrozni said:
No, just a statement of fact and some good advice. You don't have to neither like it nor follow it, but it's still true and good advice.

I'm rather fascinated about the zeal of some people in declaring that ideology of a guy who declared summary execution was an appropriate response to someone talking trash about him could ever inspire his followers to summarily execute those who talk bad about him.

Funny thing, this cognitive dissonance.

McHrozni
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How ridiculously patronising.
 
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