Erdogan mission to become sultan over Turkey nears completion

[dudalb]

Turkey has less than a century's tradition of national statehood, let alone democracy. Born in war, for most of its national history Army and Nation have been synonymous. And, in the Middle East, nationalism and secularism were synonymous until very recently. Democracy had to be managed to keep religious influence out.
Don't look at him. Look at Bannon and the like.

By Trump I meant his entire administration.

 

[Arcade22]

THe fatal flaw with Turkey's constitution is that it was too easy to change. It should be hard to change a consituion...not impossible, but hard. That is one reason the US Constituion has survived.

No it has little to with how hard it is to change a constitution. The Swedish constitution is very easy to change yet it hasn't be modified to create a legal autocracy.

He's already de facto a dictator due to the more or less non-existent rule-of-law which is the main problem. If the US president was able to attain the amount of informal authority that Erdogan has your constitution would not be able to protect you either.

 

[Mycroft]

The military had their history of pro democracy coups in turkey. Hopefully the US military would follow their example.

Let's hope our other checks & balances do the job instead.

 

[halleyscomet]

I actually compare Trump more to Erdogan than Hitler.

It's almost as it Erdogan is spoiler laden preview of Trump's near future moves.

 

[McHrozni]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...n-approves-constitutional-boost-to-his-powers

Wasting no time while Turkey is on lockdown under a state of emergency Erdogan may finally get what he wanted for so long: to openly rule Turkey effectively as an autocrat with a rubber-stamp parliament.

He's not content with being de-facto most politically powerful individual, despite only being a largely ceremonial president. He must cement his place in history as the person who tore away the facade of democracy.

Constitutional change should be impossible during a state of emergency, and all law changes made during the state of emergency should at least be subject to review at a later date - preferably after an election - if not voided outright after the state of emergency ended. There should also be a hard limit on the amount of time the country can spend in a state of emergency, the pitiful 'coup' attempt last July certainly didn't warrant a state of emergency quite this long. Turkish constitution failed in providing these safeguards, it's not that easy to change after all.

There is a very slim hope that the referendum will be a failure. Polling is all over the place, from massive lead for Yes to a massive lead for No. It will likely be close. I also don't expect Erdogan to give up if it fails, he has another 7 years to solidify his dictatorship. The best-case scenario is that he would abuse his power to falsify the vote and fail regardless, leading to a massive backlash. Turks still have the chance to take their country away from deplorables, but it won't be very easy.

McHrozni

 

[McHrozni]

The likes of Putin can point to Trump and say "That's what an unmanaged democracy throws up".

Given the overwhelming similarities between the two, that's rather ironic.

McHrozni

 

[a_unique_person]

It's almost as it Erdogan is spoiler laden preview of Trump's near future moves.

Erdogan is nothing like Trump in some important ways. He has continued the modernization of Turkey successfully in a material sense even as he has been taking it backwards in a religious sense. He is also very organised and hands on while Trump hates detail and work.

 

[ponderingturtle]

The moment coup d'etats become a thing, there is no going back. As Latin America how that turned out, with its regular Juntas.

Not at all, look at Turkey's history of pro democracy military coups. They managed several until Erdogan beat them.

If the military is loyal to the constitution and not the general then military coups can restore democracy.

 

[CapelDodger]

Given the overwhelming similarities between the two, that's rather ironic.

McHrozni

Putin and Trump? Apart from the machismo I don't see anything at all.

Putin's establishing his place in History : Trump has no concept of that. Trump sees himself as the end-point of History, the foundation of the US being but a step on the way and that Jesus guy, not a Mexican, way back, just another step.

Not necessarily what one would look for in a President, but there it is. Frankly, I'd prefer Putin.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Germans have been enabling the Turks since I was a kid. In the early 70's, oddly enough, I was warned from going to the Moabit section of West Berlin since that's where the Turks hung out.

And the Germans kept importing gastarbeiter.

Led Zepplin had a song that fits this scenario (which we'll stick to in memory of Claus ...)

Nobody's Fault But Mine.

 

[McHrozni]

Putin and Trump? Apart from the machismo I don't see anything at all.

Disregard for democratic values, personal enrichment, rule by decree and a voting base made chiefly of deplorables?

I see plenty. The main difference is that checks and balances in US system seem to be working. They are being tested, but they're standing up to the test. For now anyway.

McHrozni

 

[NWO Sentryman]

Not at all, look at Turkey's history of pro democracy military coups. They managed several until Erdogan beat them.

If the military is loyal to the constitution and not the general then military coups can restore democracy.

That's a VERY big if.

 

[Belz...]

from twinstead :

I'm concerned with the US adapting some sort of Lèse majesté laws. You'd be surprised how many Trump supporters I know who have no problem with the idea of people going to jail for defaming him

It would never get through Congress. Not even Republicans would pass what is in effect a gag-order on themselves.

The right to call the President Insulting names is very close to the heart of Americans,and any attempt to take it away would result in the political demise of anybody attempting it.

It's almost worth calling the highlighted people traitors if they think that.

 

[CapelDodger]

Disregard for democratic values, personal enrichment, rule by decree and a voting base made chiefly of deplorables?

That's the end result (Trump's "rule by decree" is still aspirational, and Putin doesn't employ it) but carved from very different rock by very different personalities. It's a job-description for any number of historical characters, on the make or hanging on to what's already been made.

I see plenty. The main difference is that checks and balances in US system seem to be working. They are being tested, but they're standing up to the test. For now anyway.

That the US system has survived this long is a testament to those who devised it, and those whose thoughts inspired them. I think it's undergoing a special test now, and showing every sign of a robust resistance. Far more robust than the assault.

 

[CapelDodger]

Germans have been enabling the Turks ...

That's a peculiar usage.

... since I was a kid. In the early 70's, oddly enough, I was warned from going to the Moabit section of West Berlin since that's where the Turks hung out.

You missed out on some great food if you followed that advice.

 

[CapelDodger]

Not at all, look at Turkey's history of pro democracy military coups. They managed several until Erdogan beat them.

When looked at more cynically these "pro-democracy" coups are more about freeing-up promotional opportunities, while maintaining the military's oversight of the nation.

If the military is loyal to the constitution and not the general then military coups can restore democracy.

It's important to understand how closely Nation and Army have been identified in Turkey since its foundation in Ataturk's day. Until quite recently.

In the Middle East nationalism and religion have always been at odds, and an important role of the Turkish army was to keep religion out of politics. That used to be all nationalists' policy in the Middle East, including Israel, but it has been let slip drastically in the recent past. At least the Egyptian army had the wherewithall to grab control back again.

 

[a_unique_person]

I had a pleasure of working with a German/Turk once. A genuinely nice guy.

 

[ponderingturtle]

That's a VERY big if.

It worked in Turkey multiple times. They restored the constitution 4-5 times.

 

[NWO Sentryman]

It worked in Turkey multiple times. They restored the constitution 4-5 times.

As for Thailand or Latin America or Libya?

 

[Darth Rotor]

That's a peculiar usage.

You missed out on some great food if you followed that advice.

I got to Izmir in 85, 86, and 96. Good food indeed! Got to Istanbul in 97. One of the best three day trips ever.

Worked for Turk for three years in NATO. Both were solid guys, and my last two years of trying to find out if either is alive have come up empty. Not too hopeful, with the last few years of trouble in Turkey. Sadness comes to me ...