EPR, Aspect, Bell, and Understanding Quantum Weirdness

I've had some limited education in physics and math beyond that which is taught in American high schools, and I think that I understand, at least in the "I can remember this kind of stuff being shown to me, and I conceptually understand it without being able to derive its underlying equations" sort of way all these posts. What amazes me, in the physics threads particularly, is the unbelievable pissing-matches people will get into over things that the vast majority of the viewers don't understand. Does anyone think that the OP poster was really concerned with the strict definition of quantum? Maybe the average non-physics major is terribly concerned with the attitude of Plank towards quantitized energy as opposed to Einstein, but I really doubt it.

Try to answer the questions, nobody cares whose slide-rule is the most inertially relatavistic.
 
Because the references you referred to were buried several very long post back and hidden within the text of the message.
They're links. That's, what, NEW or something?

A photon is a fundamental particle.
No. A photon is an elementary particle. There's no such thing as a fundamental particle.

A photon is a quantum.
Correct.

(consisting of many quanta)
I have no idea where you got this. Reference please?

A quanta is not a particle.
"A quanta" == "A antennae" or "a geese." It's content without meaning. There's no such thing as "a quanta."

New analogy;
A dog is fundamentally an animal.
A dog is a group molecules.
A molecule is not an animal.
Meaning-free. I have no idea what you're talking about, and neither does anyone else. If you want to invent your own physics, feel free, but pardon me, I prefer the one that the physicists all use.

I'm not impressed with confusion by proxy.
And I'm not impressed with inventing new physics. This has nothing to do with the practice or literature of physics. If you want to invent your own physics, you are free to do so, but I am free to point out that it has nothing to do with reality. Have fun; but don't try to pretend it has anything to do with actual physics as practiced by physicists. Sorry, but I think you're a woo.

Let's see, this was specifically in reference to spin. Spin, classical spin, quantum spin, angular momentum, etc, etc. Not going there. Having enough trouble with what plural means. Don't even try.
Yes, I'd say that's a pretty accurate summation of where your knowledge of physics has stalled. Can't figure out that quanta is the plural of quantum, can't figure out that the degree of freedom that physicists call "spin angular momentum" has nothing to do with classical angular momentum, that it is a quantum property that does not behave as classical angular momentum does. I have no time for woos. This will be the last response I give you.
 
No. A photon is an elementary particle. There's no such thing as a fundamental particle.
Fundamental particle definition;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_particle
http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=fundamental%20particle
Fundamental particle definition
http://www.lns.cornell.edu/public/lab-info/quark.html


I have no idea where you got this. Reference please?
I say "(consisting of many quanta)" in an argument about plural of quanta with this definition of quantum as plural of quanta and you don't know what I'm talking about?

"A quanta" == "A antennae" or "a geese." It's content without meaning. There's no such thing as "a quanta."
Now your trying to use the fact that quanta is plural against me? Even so I can say "a quanta" same as I can say "a flock of birds". The units of quanta even have a name called Planks constant.

Meaning-free. I have no idea what you're talking about, and neither does anyone else. If you want to invent your own physics, feel free, but pardon me, I prefer the one that the physicists all use.
You speak a lot for what other people understand.

And I'm not impressed with inventing new physics. This has nothing to do with the practice or literature of physics. If you want to invent your own physics, you are free to do so, but I am free to point out that it has nothing to do with reality. Have fun; but don't try to pretend it has anything to do with actual physics as practiced by physicists. Sorry, but I think you're a woo.
I spoke of new physics in the "opinion" and <rant> sections alone and mentioned what might be possible on one other occasion.

Yes, I'd say that's a pretty accurate summation of where your knowledge of physics has stalled. Can't figure out that quanta is the plural of quantum, can't figure out that the degree of freedom that physicists call "spin angular momentum" has nothing to do with classical angular momentum, that it is a quantum property that does not behave as classical angular momentum does. I have no time for woos. This will be the last response I give you.
You say I "Can't figure out that quanta is the plural of quantum"? I pointed out that quantum was plural of quanta in post #61. When WIKI was questioned I linked to cerns' definition in post #67. Then in post #68 I say "A photon is a quantum. (consisting of many quanta)". You then quote me in two parts in the post I'm now rebutting and for "A photon is a quantum" you say "correct" then for "(consisting of many quanta)" you say "I have no idea where you got this. Reference please". So now I don't know it's a plural!!! Do you still maintain that a quanta is a fundamental particle?

Don't answer that, I will not respond as this is an argument by subversion. If someone else has a question or ask me to respond to you I will. Otherwise the thread speaks for itself.
 
Jekyll and my_wan,

Thanks for taking the time to answer my question. I don't really understand how all of this stuff relates, but I'm making headway. I'm currently reading "The Fabric of the Cosmos" which helps too.

Thanks to Schneibster and all the other participants too. This thread has been quite educational for me. Reading about how and why people disagree on the details helps me understand those details, what they are and why they are relevant even if I don't fully understand them.
 
What if a photon carries time? If a photon is one instance (or moment) in time? If only one thing can exist in time at any given moment, then the observation of the particle and the particle itself can not exist together, it can only be one or the other. So either observed (as a particle) or not observed (as a wave).

I am sure that makes no sense to anyone, but I am having a difficult time trying to explain the concept at all.

I guess if this where true, then everything that we perceive or observe is in the past, so is only a memory. Then reality is really a memory, or exists in the past, so isn't "real" at all.

Okay, I'm confusing myself. Does anyone relate to what I am talking about?
 
What if a photon carries time? If a photon is one instance (or moment) in time? If only one thing can exist in time at any given moment, then the observation of the particle and the particle itself can not exist together, it can only be one or the other. So either observed (as a particle) or not observed (as a wave).

I am sure that makes no sense to anyone, but I am having a difficult time trying to explain the concept at all.

I guess if this where true, then everything that we perceive or observe is in the past, so is only a memory. Then reality is really a memory, or exists in the past, so isn't "real" at all.

Okay, I'm confusing myself. Does anyone relate to what I am talking about?

Disclaimer: Discussing this constitutes a thought experiment and this entire post does not represent an actual explanation of anything.

The idea is comprehensible even if very limited. We know that rates of time can vary as defined by Relativity. If we entertain the idea that the Universe is made of actual parts of some sort then it follows that physical time is defined by the rate these parts interact. If we then consider that subatomic decay etc is also subject to relativistic time rates it follows that natures most fundamental interactions occurs at a subatomic level. Given Relativity these interactions appear to occur as a property of space itself. If these events constitute physical time then your idea of defining it as time is not incongruent. However time would just be single property we could define this way.

We also have the fact that time rates for two identical macro systems can vary at some ratio. This implies that the sequencing of events in a sense has some meaning independent of the physical definition of time. This was roughly mirrored in my <rant> when I spoke of "abstract linear space". The manner it is parameterized is observer dependent. It has the feature of defining the physical world we know in terms of events rather than objects in a reducible manner. The reduction process produces lots of infinites but using Cantors' work they can be dealt with in a very general and simple way.
 
Thank you, My Wan. I can barely grasp the concepts you set forth, but I appreciate the fact that you took the time to entertain the idea. I re-read your "rant" and was able to make more sense of it, thanks to your most recent post. I will continue to follow this fascinating thread!
 
So, I guess there's no consensus about what Afshar's experiment shows. Fascinating how quantum uncertainty seems to raise a discussion to the same emotional level as does creation/evolution.
 
And FINALLY I have time to walk through what's really happening here. This post must come before the one on Afshar's experiment, so that it is possible to understand what happens in Afshar's experiment.

The first thing to understand is what "entangled" means. A lot of wild talk has been floated around about what the meaning of this term might be; things like some mysterious connection between particles at random locations, and so forth. The truth is much more mundane. Entangled particles simply have parameters that have values that are predictable from values on the other particle, using the laws of physics. In most cases, the laws involved are the simplest possible: conservation laws. In the explanations of these experiments that I have been using, specifically the conservation of angular momentum, which for a quantum is quantized as spin angular momentum, or spin.

Since angular momentum is conserved, if a spinless system emits two particles that have spin, then those particles must have equal and opposite spins. Equally, if a system that has spin still has the same spin after emitting the particles, the same must apply- spin can be neither created nor destroyed, that is the meaning of "conservation," and again, the particles must have equal and opposite spins.

Now spin is not the only thing that is conserved; for example, if two particles are emitted from an uncharged source, and one is measured to have a charge, the other must have an equal and opposite charge. If two particles emerge from a motionless source (and in their own frames of reference, all sources can be considered motionless), then if the source is still motionless in that frame after they are no longer in contact with it, then their momenta must be equal and opposite, and the vectors of their positions must also be in that frame, at any arbitrary time, unless they interact with something else.

But spin is special; and the reason is that it is both discrete, in other words it takes on small integer quantized values in all known elementary particles and for any given type of particle can only have one of two values on any given axis, and different on different axes of the same particle; but in addition to all of that, its value on one axis, while not determined by the value on another, is influenced by it. In other words, if you sort a large number of particles based on their spins on a particular axis, and then measure their spins on another axis, consistently, that is, always on the same second axis, you will find a particular probability that the spin measured on the second axis is the same as the spin on the first; and that probability will depend on the angle between the two axes. And if you take the other half (assuming a random distribution) of the particles from the first measurement, and make a second measurement at the same second angle, you will find precisely the opposite distribution of spins.

This probability distribution is a quantum mechanical property of photons. It might seem abstruse, but in fact, it is very real and concrete. This is the reason for a very interesting phenomenon in optics, that of polarization. And polarization is also dependent upon another quantum mechanical phenomenon: scattering. I will begin by explaining scattering, then move to polarization, and finally show how polarization is used in all of these experiments. Incidentally, it is worth noting that the two characteristics of spin, that it is discrete, and that a single particle can have two different values on different axes (though apparently not at the same time under uncertainty), when combined with the fact that it is a conserved quantity, make spin a particularly facile property to use in tests of EPR; that it is relatively easy to measure makes the picture complete, and this is why polarization and spin are so important in these experiments. Theoretically, we could use position and momentum, or time and energy, in the same way; but these are much more difficult to measure accurately than spin, they are continuous rather than discrete, and their expectation values under quantum and classical assumptions are more difficult to distinguish from one another.

Scattering is what happens when two particles interact in such a way that they only exchange momentum. The pool table is the classical description of scattering; the balls bounce off one another, with their trajectories modified at each bounce, but remain pool balls (unless one uses a hammer and breaks one). A great deal of work in physics has been done on scattering; there is elastic scattering, inelastic scattering, deep scattering both elastic and inelastic, and very much more. The math involved is abstruse, and when quantum mechanical representations of action, position, momentum, and spin are involved, this is one of the more complex areas of all of physics. So we must accept in advance that we will have to simplify and condense, and even gloss over some details of how these processes work if we are to gain an understanding of what is involved. I'll do my best to indicate where I am speaking of these matters in a manner that is less than precisely physically accurate, in order to illuminate them in a fashion that permits deeper understanding without having to know the math; apologies in advance if I slip up here or there.

When a photon scatters off an atom, it generally scatters off the electron shells, and in the case of a visible light photon, almost always off the outermost shell. Visible light photons don't "pack enough punch" to get past these outermost electrons and scatter from inner shells. Of course, by random chance, a few do; but they are rare and can be ignored for the purpose of understanding what happens here. Remembering a prior post on electron shells, most readers will also understand that this scattering could take place some distance from the atom; it is a very low probability, but they could encounter an electron there, due to uncertainty. In general, though, the photon must come close enough to the atom to be within a high-probability position for one or more of the electrons in the outermost shell; and then one of those electrons must actually be there for the photon to interact with. Finally, the photon must be of an energy that does not represent the correct amount for the electron to absorb it and be raised to a higher energy level; that is not scattering, it is absorption.

For a material to be transparent, it must not absorb visible light photons very often. In addition, it also must either not scatter them very often, or the scattering must happen in a fashion that does not significantly alter their trajectories; if they are scattered much, then the material will not be transparent, but translucent. In most transparent materials, the second is the case; although the photons are scattered, they are by and large scattered back by the same amount later, so there is no great difference between their trajectory when they enter the material, and when they exit it. Scattering, however, does reduce their signal velocity, and as a result, we perceive the speed of light in transparent media to be lower than the speed of light in a vacuum. Note carefully that a vacuum is a medium in which scattering does not occur, because there are no atoms in it. That is why the speed of light in a vacuum is the yardstick against which we measure all other speeds.

Most transparent materials have atoms (or more properly, in most cases, molecules) at random orientations; water and glass are good examples. Thus, the angles at which photons scatter must be relatively consistent, and relatively small; that they will scatter has to be obvious from the fact that the atoms in a liquid or a solid are in very close proximity, leading to surface tension in liquids and solidity in a solid, due to their Van der Waals interactions (these are electromagnetic interactions between the electrons and nuclei of adjacent atoms). There is thus little chance for a photon to traverse a significant distance in such a material without being scattered. There are, however, transparent materials that have their atoms or molecules arranged in a regular formation. These are called crystals. And some very interesting things can happen in such materials, particularly if they consist of atoms or molecules that are asymmetric. This is because the scattering angle of a photon depends not only on its vector and that of the electron it scatters from, but also on their relative spins. In an asymmetric molecule or atom, the scattering angle can therefore differentiate between photons with one spin or the other along the axis of the asymmetry of the atom or molecule, and if all the atoms or molecules are lined up, then all the photons with one spin will leave at one angle, and all the photons with the other spin will leave at another.

An inexact analogy would be the behavior of the cueball after striking the object ball in pool, based on whether the cueball has forespin or backspin (many people confuse backspin and forespin with "english;" true english in pool is sideways transverse spin). A cueball with forespin or topspin will pause slightly after hitting the object ball, and then "follow" it; a cueball with backspin will pause slightly and then "come back" toward the player who hit it. The big differences that make this an inexact analogy have mostly to do with the nature of photon spin which cannot be transverse but must be longitudinal, and with the differences between classical spin of a pool ball and quantum mechanical spin of a photon; however, the analogy serves to give one a proof of the possible effects of spin on post-scattering trajectories.

What is longitudinal spin? It is spin around an axis that is coincident with the direction of movement. In other words, like a corkscrew. When you think about the likely effects of this type of spin upon the trajectory of a photon that scatters from a "bump" on an asymmetric molecule or atom in a crystal, and the effects on all the photons over all the aligned "bumps" on all the atoms in the lattice, you will see how polarization can happen; the photons spinning this way will go this way, and the photons spinning that way will go that way. This is another inexact analogy, but much more subtly so; I have misrepresented the quantum mechanical spin of a photon like a classical spin. But you really do get the flavor of what the equations that describe this type of scattering say from this analogy, and I don't know of another that is more exact that is simple enough to understand without math, so I'll stop there and let this one stand; remember, however, that there are parts of this analogy that are not accurate, and I will have occasion to note some of them later.

So now we have a good analogy that gives us a pretty good idea of what happens inside a crystal that can cause the emergence of two beams of light where one went in, with the photons in each beam sorted by their measured (yes, that scattering this way or that way was indeed a measurement) spins, UP or DOWN with reference to the optical axis of the crystal lattice. The optical axis, of course, is the direction along the crystal lattice in which the "bumps" "stick out" and can affect the trajectories of the photons based on their spins as I have described. I quoted those terms because, again, we are in an area where analogy can give us the flavor of what's happening, but is not precisely accurate. Now, note that I said "measurement" in there; that's very important, and it's not in any way an analogy. This is a real, quantum mechanical, exact, precise measurement in every sense of the word. We have specifically measured the spins of the photons along the optical axis of the crystal, and that also is an exact, precise description of the situation, no analogy at all. This should help make it clearer where this analogy breaks down, and make it clear that that breakdown cannot affect the conclusions I will draw from this description.

OK, now what about the whole wave description of polarization, you know, the right-handed/left-handed circular polarization, and the plane polarization, and elliptical polarization and all that stuff? Well, we could get into that- but if we do, it's a complete other discussion. But there's something more important to understand here, and it is the key to Afshar: if I use that description, I will get the same results as if I use the particle description I have above. This is called the principle of complementarity. Many people misstate that principle as "you can't measure wave and particle behavior at the same time." While nominally true, that ignores a more important fact: both measurements are equally valid, and will yield the same result. And further misunderstanding is possible, based ONLY on the more egregious misstatement that "you can't see both wave and particle behavior in the same experiment." This last is simply not true. What is true is that you can analyze a single measurement, i.e. a single interaction between a photon and an atom, either in terms of wave mechanics, or in terms of matrix mechanics, but you can't switch methods in the middle of the analysis of that measurement and expect to get a consistent answer. However, no matter whether you use wave mechanics or matrices, you will get the SAME answer. Afshar makes two measurements, and claims to have "measured wave and particle behavior in the same experiment," which is true, but then claims this "violates complementarity," which is not.

OK, now back to the main thread; we'll get to an analysis of Afshar when we've disposed of the impossibilities in my previous description of the DCQE (yes, I exaggerated for effect, and yes, I always intended it this way, I think it makes the point in a very forceful, anti-woo-woo way, on a subject that lends itself to a great deal of woo).

Now that we understand polarization, let's talk a little more about spin, and make sure we understand the implications of it. But first, let's talk again about phase.

Phase is the precise position in spacetime at which a wave has a certain value; for example, precisely where and when the value of the parameter that is "waving" achieves its maximum value. Because waves repeat themselves, this is not a single point, but a collection of points. Note that two waves that are 180° out of phase, that is, when the maximum value of one wave coincides with the minimum value of another, if the waves have the same magnitude, that is, the same maximum and minimum values, they cancel, and we measure nothing.

When we talk about the phase of something that is rotating, it quickly becomes clear that this is a wave phenomenon because it repeats; and that means it must have phase. Now, if that something has conserved and quantized angular momentum as quanta do, then the phase must reinforce itself, because if it did not, then the angular momentum would disappear and conservation would be violated. It turns out when you analyze this situation using topology, that branch of geometry which is concerned with the shapes and relationships of things rather than their exact sizes and positions, there are two possibilities. Either the spin reinforces itself on every rotation, or it reinforces itself on every other rotation. Note that this means that when two particles encounter one another, in the first case, the two spin phases coincide, and double the magnitude; in the second case, and I'll state right now that this is impossible because the particles would cease to exist and thereby violate all the conservation laws for their parameters, the two spin phases anti-coincide, and cancel. This observation is the basis of the spin-statistics theorem, which I often call "the Laws of Spin and Statistics," after one of my favorite expositions on QM, The Force of Symmetry, by Vincent Icke. Icke himself notes that the discussion here of spin and phase is another inexact analogy, and I repeat that warning; he and I are encouraging you to visualize things in a way that has some differences from the exact mathematics, but it is a very illuminating analogy, and without actually using the math, I know again of none better. This will give us the idea, without overwhelming us in abstruse math.

Now, what are these "waves" that are involved with spin? They are, of course, Schroedinger's probability function. And so what we see is that if two particles with spins that reinforce on successive rotations encounter one another, the probability that they will remain together in the same position and quantum state is doubled, all other factors (primarily momentum) being in proper alignment; however, if two particles that reinforce only after two rotations encounter one another, and their spins are out of phase, then the probability that they will be in the same quantum state is canceled; that means it's zero. And we all know what "zero probability" means.

Physicists call particles whose rotational phase reinforces on successive rotations "integer spin" particles, or "bosons," because their statistics were first described by Satyendra Nath Bose and Albert Einstein, and are therefore called the "Bose-Einstein statistics." These particles are the quanta of forces and energy: the photon, the gluon, and the W and Z bosons, and perhaps the graviton ("perhaps" because no consistent quantum mechanical description of the graviton exists currently). As many bosons as might be desired (or can be gathered) can occupy the same quantum state; they are in fact more likely to do so, and this leads to interesting phenomena like the coherence of light in a laser beam and the anomalous behaviors of Bose-Einstein condensates, for example superfluidity. It also leads to them building up together and exhibiting what we call "forces" and "fields" as they transfer momentum between fermions. These particles can also be characterized as "energy," though traditionally only the photon is so described. All but the W and Z bosons are massless, and move forever at the speed of light.

Physicists call particles whose rotational phase reinforces on every other rotation "half-integer spin" particles, or "fermions," because their statistics were first described by Enrico Fermi and Paul Dirac, and are therefore called the "Fermi-Dirac statistics." These particles are the quanta of matter: quarks, electrons, muons, tauons, and neutrinos. Only two identical fermions can occupy a single quantum state, and only if they are of opposite spin. This is called the "Pauli exclusion principle," after Wolfgang Pauli who discovered it, and is responsible for the fact that fermions build up into finite-sized aggregates that we call "matter." These particles can cancel if all of their properties other than the one called "mass" are equal and opposite; particles with these opposite properties from the ones we commonly encounter in everyday life are called "antimatter." The mass is also conserved, but can be interconverted with the energy of bosons; and since the antiparticle of the photon is itself (a curious requirement of the conservation of energy), when this annihilation occurs, the mass of the disappearing particles can be carried away by photons as energy, while their other parameters (charge, spin, and so forth) cancel each other out. These particles must always move at less than the speed of light because of their possession of mass.

So now we understand spin, and polarization; and phase. I will pick up the thread in the next post, and we will see precisely how these properties interact in these experiments.
 
Just as an aside, it was asserted by another poster here that, "This is nonsense. Bell's argument had nothing to do with mutual dependence of spin states on different axes." This is incorrect; Bell (1964) explicitly demonstrates his theorem using the spin singlet state of Bohm and Ahronov (1957), derived in turn from EPR (1935). If there was any remaining doubt as to the correctness of that poster's assertions, this must dispel it, since this information is available in Bell's original 1964 paper here. "With the example advocated by Bohm and Ahronov, the EPR argument is the following. Consider a pair of spin one-half particles formed somehow in the singlet spin state and moving freely in opposite directions. Measurements can be made, say by Stern-Gerlach magnets, on selected components of the spins σ1 and σ2. If measurement of the component σ1 [dot] a, where a is some unit vector, yields the value +1 then, according to quantum mechanics, measurement of σ2 [dot] a must yield the value -1 and vice versa." It has to be intuitively obvious to the most casual observer that on the first page of his paper, Bell has begun to describe Bohm and Ahronov's adaptation of the EPR experiment using the spin singlet state. Far from being "nonsense," it appears that my original description of this was not merely accurate, but exact. That would make that other poster's assertion, well, quite frankly, a lie. Folks are welcome to draw their own conclusions from the demonstrable and proven presence of such a lie in that poster's work. I hope not to have to address this issue again for the truth to be clear.
 
OK, now let's go back and look at our experiments.

The original EPR proposal was that two particles be produced in a manner that would ensure a correlation between their positions and momenta; specifically, that their momenta be equal and opposite, which in turn implies that at any given time their positions will be equidistant from the point of origin in opposite directions. In other words, the positions and momenta of the particles would be entangled. Thus, one could measure the position of one particle, and the momentum of the other, and thus determine the conjugate variable for the other particle which since they are entangled would be equal and opposite, and would be faced with the conundrum that in order for momentum to be conserved, the conjugate variable would have to have real existence on each particle. Of course, if one measures either the position on both, or the momentum on both, then one finds the precise value predicted from the value on the other. This, in the opinion of Einstein, Podolsky, and Rosen, left one either to conclude that the measured quantity in the same-measurement case was instantaneously transmitted between the particles, so that they could have the same value, a violation of Special Relativity's postulate of the finite and maximal speed of light, what Einstein referred to disparagingly as "spooky action at a distance," or that the two particles actually possessed the indicated values, which would mean that the values existed but quantum mechanics could not predict them, a demonstrable hole in QM's ability to describe reality that would make it incomplete.

Einstein made reference to the same idea in less rigorous terms by asking whether the Moon exists when no one is looking at it; intending, of course, to ridicule Heisenberg uncertainty.

David Bohm later pointed out that because of the existence of a well-known form of entanglement, based on the conservation of angular momentum, called a "spin singlet state," and because the uncertainty of position and momentum implied conjugation under uncertainty of spin state on multiple simultaneous axes of spin measurement, a practical test of EPR could be performed using two particles in a spin singlet state. In this state, the spins would be opposite, but it matters little whether they are opposite or the same, as long as they are correlated.

John Bell then took this experiment, called "EPRB," for Bohm's development of the EPR paradox using the spin singlet, and produced a stunning result: if the spins on different axes had simultaneous real existence, then they had to be correlated to one another for angular momentum to be conserved. This, Bell proved, would be a correlation that could be experimentally determined, and would be different from the predictions of quantum mechanics. Bell formulated a set of inequalities that represented the expectation values in the presence of the necessary correlation of the measurements at different angles if the values had real existence but were unmeasurable.

Next, Clauser and Horne, and later Shimony and Holt along with them, first in 1969 derived the specific form of Bell's Inequality, called CHSH for them, that led to a precise testable set of predictions differing from those of quantum mechanics, and then in 1974 derived another form of the Inequality called CH74 (for Clauser and Horne) began trying to set up experimental tests of the precise values to see whether Bell's Inequality was violated or not (Clauser did the first tests in 1972 with Freedman, using a derivation by Freedman similar to CH74, but they were inconclusive). They were partially successful, but did not manage to demonstrate the violation and confirm the QM prediction to a very high level of certainty.

Finally, in 1981, Aspect devised a form of the experiment that gave results that were good to six sigma, a level of certainty that can be classified as "beyond a reasonable doubt," that Bell's Inequality is violated. Aspect is considered generally to be the first really rigorous test of any of these inequalities, collectively referred to as "Bell's Inequalities."

In 1998, Gregor Weihs took this initially to thirty standard deviations, and eventually beyond 200 standard deviations, a ridiculous level of certainty, and also closed the largest "loophole" proposed by critics of Aspect's experiment. Lately, a three-particle variant, using an appropriate inequality, has yielded proof that the effect is seen for systems other than two-particle ones, closing most of the remaining loopholes, and pushing the multiple of the standard deviation over which the results are validated yet further, to the point that it is almost not hyperbolic to label doubters woos. There do remain a few valid skeptics, primarily scientific iconoclasts hoping to show something interesting and derive valuable results; but the bulk of doubters are woos who are invested in "nonlocal phenomena" which are used as justification for everything from telepathy to alien abductions.

Let's examine Aspect's experiment. What precisely happens here?

Two photons in a spin singlet state are created by the transition of a calcium atom's outer shell electrons to and from higher-energy states in a cascade. One goes to each side of the experiment. Their polarization state (i.e., spin on the plane of polarization) is determined by directing them to one or another of a pair of polarizer-detector pairs oriented at appropriate angles, with the two optical switches that determine the which detector is used "flipping" asynchronously at high speed to ensure that the state of the detector was indeterminate at the time the photon was emitted. This prevents instantaneous transmission of the detector state to the photons' creation point by a Bohm-style "pilot wave," unless that "pilot wave" travels backward in time and violates causality.

There are two possible outcomes: the spin states of the photons are determinate, but unmeasurable, in which case Bell's Inequality will be satisfied by the measurements of the photons' spins on different axes; or the spin states are indeterminate on unmeasurable axes, in which case Bell's Inequality will be violated, and the predictions of QM upheld. The results are above, and are sufficient for all but the iconoclasts and the woos.

Now, if we assume that the spin values are indeterminate, then that is tantamount to asserting that there is a loophole in the conservation of angular momentum: if you can't measure that violation because to do so would violate uncertainty, then it does not exist. But then we have a different problem: assuming that the spin values are indeterminate on unmeasurable axes, why should they be the same on the axes that are measured? We are faced with two bad choices; either:
1. They have those values all along, in which case
a. how did they know what values to start out with, or
b. which axes to have values on and which not,
in advance of the measurement, or
2. Those values suddenly sprang into existence, in which case how can they be the same instantaneously in places that are outside one anothers' light cones?

This is why it is so often asserted that quantum mechanics is nonlocal; the second alternative turns out to be less difficult to deal with than the first. But there turns out to be a hidden assumption in this. That assumption is that a parameter that is unmeasurable due to being conjugate under uncertainty is the same as a parameter that has not yet been measured. There is no reason to assume this; it is gratuitous. On the other hand, it is also difficult to postulate that some parameters have values simply because they are going to be measured, and others don't because they aren't, particularly when whether they are or not changes between the time they're emitted and the time they're detected.

True hidden variable theories, in which the parameters we cannot measure have real existence, also known as local realism, are ruled out by Aspect. More esoteric hidden variable theories, like TI, or Bohm, are not; such theories postulate the exchange of information at superluminal speeds, or instantaneously, or even backward in time; this information, however, only indirectly determines the values we measure, so it is not ruled out.

CI with wave function collapse is not ruled out either, but it has conceptual problems specifically with the collapse. For example, since uncertainty in position says that although the chance that an electron that is on Earth will in the next instant be found at Aldebaran is infinitesimal, it is not zero; that means that when the wave function collapses, it does so over all of space at once, violating causality in the same way that Bohm does (not explicitly, not measurably, but violating it all the same).

Now, no matter how you slice this, something weird is going on. It totally defies our normal sense of how things happen; either these particles somehow "know" what's going on beforehand, or somehow "find out" what's happening somewhere else without respect for causality, or there's more to the story than we've seen so far.

The last is, of course, the correct answer. There is more to the story. The "more" is that quantum mechanics doesn't work the way classical mechanics does. The logic that quanta use to determine what happens when they interact is fundamentally different from the logic that we use to determine what happens in a classical system. The fact of the matter is, we don't know any more than what the equations of quantum mechanics tell us. There is a distinct possibility that we never will. No one has ever devised an experiment that can differentiate between the various interpretations of quantum mechanics- between Consistent Histories, Many Worlds, the Transactional Interpretation, Bohm-de Broglie pilot waves, Copenhagen, or any of the other interpretations. We just have to accept that quanta can interact in this way. We know they do- we've proven it by experiment; Aspect, the DCQE, even Young's original dual slit experiment, all prove it. That's just how it is. Feynman said, "Do not keep saying to yourself, if you can possibly avoid it, 'But how can it be like that?' because you will get 'down the drain,' into a blind alley from which nobody has yet escaped. Nobody knows how it can be like that." You just have to accept that that is how quantum logic works.

When you look at values that must be correlated to preserve the conservation laws, they are correlated. When you look for correlations in values that are not measurable, you will not find them- instead, you find the random probability distribution predicted by quantum mechanics. As soon as a quantum interacts with another quantum, its wave function is forever changed, and there are things you will never be able to know about its history. Now that it is clear that we are dealing with a different sort of logic, we are ready to tackle Afshar.
 
Afshar uses a setup that employs several elements. First, light from a laser is sent to two pinholes. Behind the pinholes, a lens focuses their light into two beams that are then directed to photodetectors. When one pinhole is blocked, its corresponding photodetector ceases to detect photons.

Next, Afshar carefully measures the position of the interference fringes created by the two pinholes, and carefully places a grid of wires so that the wires are in the dark portions of the fringes. Theoretically, then, none of the photons will hit the wires when both pinholes are open. This is a result of the Feynman proposal for analysis of the Young dual-slit experiment in which single particles are sent through.

The expectation therefore is that when both pinholes are open, the results will be no different at the two detectors whether the grid is in place or not; this is because there are no photons hitting the wires, because they are in the positions where no photons go. But when one pinhole is closed, the image of the other pinhole will be diffracted by the wires, which will no longer be in the dark portions of the now non-existent interference pattern.

The expectation is met; the results are, when both pinholes are open, the wires make no difference, but when one pinhole is closed, some of the photons are diffracted and the image in the photodetector that receives all the photons is dimmed.

Afshar makes the claim that this violates complementarity. Unfortunately, it appears that the problem is not with complementarity, but with Afshar's analysis. In fact, the experiment is not a single measurement, but two measurements. The first is by the wires, which behave precisely as one expects, diffracting when there is no interference, and not diffracting when there is. The second is by the photodetectors, which detect just about all the photons when there is interference, and not all the remaining photons when there is not. This emphasizes the fact that a single photon can be measured as a wave at one place and time, and as a particle at another place and time; but it does not violate complementarity, because to do so it would have to be detected as both a wave and a particle at the same place and time.

That should about do it.
 
That should about do it.
Nice job.

Afshar obviously contends that he can infer the pinhole through which the photon passes, based on the detector that clicks at the back of the experiment.

I take it that you would contend that the inference is invalid, because the fact that the photon strikes a particular detector doesn't prove that it actually entered the corresponding pinhole?
 
Nice job.
Thanks. :D

Afshar obviously contends that he can infer the pinhole through which the photon passes, based on the detector that clicks at the back of the experiment.
I believe so. This is flawed, because it assumes that the photon must propagate as a particle throughout the experiment to be detected as one at the end of it; but we already know that this cannot be true, because of Aspect, the DCQE, and the single-particle versions of the original Young experiment proposed by Feynman and suggested by the Stern-Gerlach experiment.

I take it that you would contend that the inference is invalid, because the fact that the photon strikes a particular detector doesn't prove that it actually entered the corresponding pinhole?
Correct. Another way to say this is to say that there is no welcher-weg (which-way) data unless you detect the photons at the pinholes; and yet another way is to maintain that by quantum logic the experiment with only one pinhole open has no logical connection to the experiment with both open, although by classical logic it appears to.
 
By the way, it is probably worth mentioning that the Afshar experiment is interesting, in the same way as the DCQE or Aspect or Young or Stern-Gerlach. It just doesn't prove what Afshar thinks it does, because he's unable to completely discard classical logic in his analysis. It is another way of looking at the same thing that the DCQE tells us, and it's an illuminating one. So to speak. Heh.
 
Just as an aside, it was asserted by another poster here that, "This is nonsense. Bell's argument had nothing to do with mutual dependence of spin states on different axes." This is incorrect; Bell (1964) explicitly demonstrates his theorem using the spin singlet state of Bohm and Ahronov (1957), derived in turn from EPR (1935). If there was any remaining doubt as to the correctness of that poster's assertions, this must dispel it, since this information is available in Bell's original 1964 paper here. "With the example advocated by Bohm and Ahronov, the EPR argument is the following. Consider a pair of spin one-half particles formed somehow in the singlet spin state and moving freely in opposite directions. Measurements can be made, say by Stern-Gerlach magnets, on selected components of the spins σ1 and σ2. If measurement of the component σ1 [dot] a, where a is some unit vector, yields the value +1 then, according to quantum mechanics, measurement of σ2 [dot] a must yield the value -1 and vice versa." It has to be intuitively obvious to the most casual observer that on the first page of his paper, Bell has begun to describe Bohm and Ahronov's adaptation of the EPR experiment using the spin singlet state. Far from being "nonsense," it appears that my original description of this was not merely accurate, but exact. That would make that other poster's assertion, well, quite frankly, a lie. Folks are welcome to draw their own conclusions from the demonstrable and proven presence of such a lie in that poster's work. I hope not to have to address this issue again for the truth to be clear.


It seems that quite a bit of straw has been accumulating around here in my absence, looks like I need to get out the pitchfork! :)

Firstly, let me address this by providing a more complete quote in proper context from the Bell paper (my emphasis):

With the example advocated by Bohm and Aharonov, the EPR argument is the following. Consider a pair of spin one-half particles formed somehow in the singlet spin state and moving freely in opposite directions. Measurements can be made, say by Stern-Gerlach magnets, on selected components of the spins [latex]$\vec \sigma_1$[/latex] and [latex]$\vec \sigma_2$[/latex]. If measurement of the component [latex]$\vec \sigma_1 \centerdot \vec a$[/latex], where [latex]$\vec a$[/latex] is some unit vector, yields the value +1 then, according to quantum mechanics, measurement of [latex]$\vec \sigma_1 \centerdot \vec a$[/latex], must yield the value -1 and vice versa.

Now we make the hypothesis, and it seems one at least worth considering, that if the two measurements are made at places remote from one another the orientation of one magnet does not influence the result obtained with the other. Since we can predict in advance the result of measuring any chosen component of [latex]$\vec \sigma_2$[/latex], by previously measuring the same component of [latex]$\vec \sigma_1$[/latex], it follows that the result of any such measurement must be predetermined.


The argument of Bell relates to two separate but entangled particles (that is what is meant by "singlet state"). By definition, each particle must have equal and opposite spins, and it is assumed that the spins are real (which is a necessary pre-condition for Bell's argument to work). He refers to these spins on the two particles with the symbols [latex]$\vec \sigma_1$[/latex] and [latex]$\vec \sigma_2$[/latex] respectively. It's important to understand that although the spins are opposite, they both have the same axis (they have to by definition) - and furthermore, there is no doubt (from including the extended context above) that the two symbols refer to different particles (i.e. "at places remote from one another"). Bell then proposes a measurement of each of these spins relative to some arbitrary basis frame which he denotes with a vector [latex]$\vec a$[/latex]. Note, that once again the same "a" vector is used in both cases. From this Bell concludes that the quantized result of such measurements must be +1 for one particle and -1 for the other.

So in other words, Bell is talking about measurements on two particles which have the same axis of spin, and the measurements in both cases are made relative to the same basis unit vector.

Now consider Schneibster's claim that:

Bell considered the situation in EPR carefully and realized that everyone had missed something important. What he showed was that although the spin on a second axis was not completely dependent upon the spin on the first, the probability of a certain spin was different if the other spin had some known value than if it did not have any value.


And my reply to that, which was, "This is nonsense. Bell's argument had nothing to do with mutual dependence of spin states on different axes". My criticism was absolutely correct and valid and is in no way refuted by the quote from Bell's paper above. In fact, that quote from Bell, does not in any way support Schneibster's claim - it isn't even related to what he claimed! His claim that I was objecting to was that spin on a second axis is not completely dependent on the spin of another. In other words, he is claiming that the spin on two different axes are (to some extent) dependent on each other. And this is nonsense because the spin on one axis has nothing to do with the spin on a different axis. It's worth noting in this context that in QM, the measurement actually defines the axes in question, and it is meaningless to speak of anything other than a measured axis and obviously orthogonal components - there is no predefined reference frame against which we can classify axes. So in order to support his claim that spins on different axes are dependent, he quotes Bell talking about measurements on the same axes using a single vector pointing in the same direction, and then calls me a liar!!!

Draw your own conclusions, and as always I urge everyone to check out the original references themselves and not allow themselves to be misled by plausible sounding but ultimately nonsensical "simplifications".
 
Nice job.

Afshar obviously contends that he can infer the pinhole through which the photon passes, based on the detector that clicks at the back of the experiment.

I take it that you would contend that the inference is invalid, because the fact that the photon strikes a particular detector doesn't prove that it actually entered the corresponding pinhole?


and:

Correct. Another way to say this is to say that there is no welcher-weg (which-way) data unless you detect the photons at the pinholes; and yet another way is to maintain that by quantum logic the experiment with only one pinhole open has no logical connection to the experiment with both open, although by classical logic it appears to.


kjkent1, Afshar himself has answered this criticism many times - it doesn't mean he's right but the situation is not necessarily as simple as some would have it. Why don't you go look at Afshar's blog? Although Afshar doesn't generally like to answer lay questions he seems willing to answer at least some and does provide some further explanations.

http://irims.org/blog/index.php/questions/2004/09/25/questions_welcome#comments
and http://irims.org/blog/index.php/2005/03/13/questions_welcome_1#comments

By the way, Afshar has offered a $1000 prize to anyone who can formally prove there is no which way information. Given Schneibster's great expertise I have no doubt that he will immediately challenge Afshar and win the prize... :D
 
It seems that quite a bit of straw has been accumulating around here in my absence, looks like I need to get out the pitchfork! :)
I guess we know why you were absent, too.

First above all I note that you do not even attempt refutation of my claims that you were engaged in nothing but harassment; that, I think, speaks for itself. Second, it appears that I pegged you: you are a physics woo. You believe five impossible things before breakfast, and if we listen long enough, you'll be telling us about how we can teleport to the next dimension (sic) if we just believe hard enough.

I'll now prove that you're a woo, since you've given me enough ammunition to, give you one chance to respond, and then put you on ignore, because I don't have time for woos.

And my reply to that, which was, "This is nonsense. Bell's argument had nothing to do with mutual dependence of spin states on different axes".
It has everything to do with it, since there is no uncertainty unless there are two axes involved.

End of conversation. I'll await your one reply. Have fun.
 

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