EPR, Aspect, Bell, and Understanding Quantum Weirdness

God, I wish you'd been able to say that at the start. I read all that! Now, I have to go read your physics web pages to get back on track.

Hope SusanB-M1 reads your reply...


Yes, I have just read all the new posts up to here (i.e. #10). I think it is a great pity that a scientist might be offended that others do not agree. Such feelings will delay progress I think.
 
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This is probably a stupid question, but I've always been confused about what a 'wave' is when discussing quantum physics. It's easy for me to grasp what a particle is - or at least think I understand what is being referred to. But I think of a wave not as a physical entity but as motion in a fluid. I have never been able to really understand how an electron or photon can be thought of as a wave.

Helpful explanations would be appreciated. The thing about the equations used to describe them being the same as the equations used to describe a wave make some sense to me, but despite being very familiar with statistical distribution equations, I'm not at all familiar with wave equations so I don't understand how they relate.



Thanks.
 
This is probably a stupid question, but I've always been confused about what a 'wave' is when discussing quantum physics. It's easy for me to grasp what a particle is - or at least think I understand what is being referred to. But I think of a wave not as a physical entity but as motion in a fluid. I have never been able to really understand how an electron or photon can be thought of as a wave.

Helpful explanations would be appreciated. The thing about the equations used to describe them being the same as the equations used to describe a wave make some sense to me, but despite being very familiar with statistical distribution equations, I'm not at all familiar with wave equations so I don't understand how they relate.

Thanks.

This is the problem that many people have had in the past, and was the main reason for the idea of the ether. You can think about electromagnetic waves as fluctuations in an electric (and magnetic of course, but it is easier to think of just one at a time) field. At every single point in space there is a value for the electric field. In most places it is effectively zero, although it never quite gets there as long as there are charged particles somewhere in the universe. All light is is variations in this field. As the light passes along the field at a given point goes up and then down and then back to zero, just like the level of water in a regular wave. Since light is always given off in discrete amounts, or quanta, each train of waves has a finite length. A photon is simply one of these wave trains.

Other particles are less clear, and this is where all the fun of quantum mechanics came from in the first place. The idea of treating particles like waves had never been thought of because, as you say, particles are physical entities while waves are motion of a fluid. However, when looking at the equations of quantum mechanics people realised that the equations they had to describe particles had exactly the same shape and form as standard wave equations for ordinary waves in fluids. It is therefore apparent that particles are behaving like waves, and for all we know may actually be waves, or even something that behaves a bit like a particle and a bit like a wave. What they "really" are is not really relevant, all that matters is the maths used to describe them, and since it has the form of a wave equation it makes sense to call it "the wave function".
 
This is the problem that many people have had in the past, and was the main reason for the idea of the ether.
Hmmm...I wonder if Afshar has inadvertantly made a physical confirmation of the existence of the "ether." That is, with both silts open, the particle is confirmed to enter only one slit and and strike one detector, while the wave created by the particle's passage through the ether is confirmed to enter both slits and thus creates an interference pattern.

This still doesn't explain why the wave vanishes when an active observation is made prior to when the wave-particle enters the slit, but it definitely would explain the result of Afshar's experiment.
 
That is, with both silts open, the particle is confirmed to enter only one slit and and strike one detector, [...]
It struck just one detector, but how was it "confirmed to enter only one slit" if both slits were open? A photon always strikes just one detector.
 
Overall, nice job, Schneibster!

But, I think Brian Greene does a better job explaining this stuff in his books "The Elegant Universe" and "The Fabric of the Cosmos".
I would recommend everyone read at least one of those, if you can!

Also, Schneibster,
I am most curious about how you would respond to each of Pragmatist's claims that you are "wrong". Perhaps you can provide some links to sources you derrived your info. from?
 
Just to provide a quick answer, there are several defects in the Afshar experiment.
1. The fact that the photons have interfered prior to entering the lens does not preclude them entering, interacting with, and exiting the lens as particles.
2. The preclusion of measuring a quantum as both a particle and a wave is not in a single experiment but in a single measurement. This experiment includes two measurement areas.

That will do for starters. There is more, but to understand it, you need to understand Aspect and the DCQE, and I'm not prepared to write that right now. Just didn't want to leave you hanging, kjkent1.
 
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You can think about electromagnetic waves as fluctuations in an electric [...] field. At every single point in space there is a value for the electric field. [...] All light is is variations in this field. [...] Since light is always given off in discrete amounts, or quanta, each train of waves has a finite length.
I don't see the connection between discreteness and finite "length" of waves.

Is "length" the right word, anyway? Space has three dimensions, not one.
 
I don't see the connection between discreteness and finite "length" of waves.

Is "length" the right word, anyway? Space has three dimensions, not one.
There are disadvantages to the "wave packet" explanation Cuddles has used; most physicists don't believe it's quite technically accurate, and do believe that it can lead to misconceptions, but it is a valid pedagogical technique that has been used by two authors whose work I have read. The basic idea is that a quantum is a "wave packet," that is, a collection of peaks and troughs of finite extent.

In examples, the size of the envelope (the line just tangent to all the peaks and troughs) expands from zero to some maximum and then reduces to zero, along the direction of propagation. While this is not technically accurate, it does very effectively illustrate the uncertainty in position and momentum; that is because one must ask the question, precisely where is the packet? The most obvious answer is, where the envelope is largest but one can then immediately point out that if only the largest cycle of the wave is known, there is uncertainty in its wavelength. The only way to have absolute certainty in the wavelength is to have an infinite number of cycles, and if that is the case, then the meaning of "location" is completely lost, at least in terms of the direction of propagation, and since the wavelength is related to the momentum through de Broglie's equation, this means that one has complete information as to the momentum but no information about the position; or, if one has only one peak in the wave, and assumes that peak is the position, then one has no information about the momentum.
 
Just to provide a quick answer, there are several defects in the Afshar experiment.
1. The fact that the photons have interfered prior to entering the lens does not preclude them entering, interacting with, and exiting the lens as particles.
2. The preclusion of measuring a quantum as both a particle and a wave is not in a single experiment but in a single measurement. This experiment includes two measurement areas.

That will do for starters. There is more, but to understand it, you need to understand Aspect and the DCQE, and I'm not prepared to write that right now. Just didn't want to leave you hanging, kjkent1.
Thanks. I can certainly see why this subject is a fertile battleground. It's damn near as threatening to belief systems as is evolution/creation.
 
Thanks. I can certainly see why this subject is a fertile battleground. It's damn near as threatening to belief systems as is evolution/creation.
Worse yet, it's difficult to even define what one's position on the questions raised by the experiment without a relatively detailed understanding of QM.

ETA: It strikes me that I should state an opinion on Afshar's status (and this is only an opinion, and not a really well-informed one, either): I do not believe this individual is a kook or crank. The experiment is seriously designed, and does in fact raise some interesting questions, even in the absence of the (admittedly rather naively stated) problems I illustrated above. There is debate, controversy, over the meaning of the results, but none about the results themselves; as far as I have been able to determine, there is no question as to whether Afshar observed what he states he did, only about its interpretation. I believe that the experiment has been repeated by independent parties, with the stated results.
 
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Schneibster, I'm not sure if I'm on your Ignore list or not, but in case I'm not, I'd just like you to be aware of the following.

As a layman in the deeper intricacies of physics, I have read several of your long posts on this topic with interest. I find them generally quite lucid and at times illuminating.

However, I also respect the opinion on physics of posters like Pragmatist and Ziggurat. Given their criticism of your knowledge and your subsequent public Ingoring of them, I'm having big doubts as to the veracity of your input.

I'm sure you've heard of the Scientific Method, and this behaviour of yours does not look good in that regard.

Any chance you might face the music and answer the criticisms raised?
 
This is probably a stupid question, but I've always been confused about what a 'wave' is when discussing quantum physics. It's easy for me to grasp what a particle is - or at least think I understand what is being referred to. But I think of a wave not as a physical entity but as motion in a fluid. I have never been able to really understand how an electron or photon can be thought of as a wave.

Helpful explanations would be appreciated. The thing about the equations used to describe them being the same as the equations used to describe a wave make some sense to me, but despite being very familiar with statistical distribution equations, I'm not at all familiar with wave equations so I don't understand how they relate.

Thanks.


Not a stupid question. It is indeed very confusing. The Afshar paper, linked to above, starts like this:

“All these fifty years of conscious brooding have brought me no nearer to the answer to the question, ‘What are light quanta?’ Nowadays every Tom, Dick and Harry thinks he knows it, but he is mistaken.” (Albert Einstein, 1951)


I think it's best to think of a quantum mechanical wavefunction as being a very abstract, mathematical sort of thing.

A sound wave is fairly concrete: at this point in the room the air pressure is now high, at that point it's now low, etc. A moment later, the pressures at the various points are slightly different than they were, as the wave has propagated a bit. Etc. With each point in space and time, there is associated a number---the air pressure there and then.

A (classical) magnetic field is not too much harder. With each point in space and time there is still associated a value, except now the value isn't a single number---it's a vector, which describes both the strength of the field and its direction: if you put a compass there and then, 1) in which direction would the field cause it to point if it were free to rotate, and 2) how strong would you have to be to hold the compass needle pointing in the wrong direction?

One weird thing about quantum mechanical wavefunctions is that their values aren't real numbers or vectors, but complex numbers. Air pressure is a real number. Magnetic field strength is a vector. What is one of these complex numbers? It's called an amplitude. The square of its absolute value is real, and represents the probability that a certain measurement will yield a certain result. But what is it, itself, really? Who knows? Beats me. And a lot of other people. But we can't simply replace everywhere the complex amplitude by the corresponding real probability; in order to account for interference phenomena, the equations that describe the evolution of the wavefunction rely essentially on its complexity.

Another weird thing about quantum mechanical wavefunctions is that, except in the simplest of cases, they aren't functions of points in 3D space, but of "points" in much higher-dimensional "spaces".

An analogy: If they're all independent, a bunch of real-valued random variables isn't much more complicated than a single one. There are just more of them, that's all. But what if they're correlated? Then it's not enough to know the (one-dimensional) density of each. To completely characterize n random variables, you need an n-dimensional joint density: for each particular n-tuple of values, what's the probability that the n variables simultaneously take on those n values?

Parts of a compound quantum system can similarly be correlated, so that no part has individually its own wavefunction, but rather the system as a whole has one big, high-dimensional wavefunction. The Wikepedia article on wave functions describes this pretty well.

And if all that isn't weird enough: in quantum field theory, not only can there be uncertainty about the positions of quanta, and not only can there be correlations between these uncertain positions, but there can also be uncertainty even about the number of quanta in the system. Are there two photons here? Or are there three? Yes.

How does the saying go? "Life is complex. It has real parts and it has imaginary parts." Something like that...
 
With regard to my criticisms of Schneibster's explanation above, I will list evidence in support of my claims that he is substantially wrong.

I already gave a link that covers my first two criticisms about the true story with regard to Planck and Einstein, but here it is again: http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/13/12/8

With regard to my third criticism of his claim that Schrodinger had done his work while Einstein and Planck were formulating ideas about quanta of radiation, and that deBroglie came along after that, here is a link to a chronology: http://pdg.web.cern.ch/pdg/cpep/history/quantumt.html - note that the erroneous claim about Planck and quanta is reproduced there also, however that is dealt with by my first link above.

To summarize:

Planck's idea, 1900
Einstein, Photoelectric Effect, 1905
De Broglie, waves, 1924
Schrodinger Wave Functions, 1926

My third criticism was of his claim that "all matter and all energy are made up of indivisible elementary particles called quanta". The word, "quanta" is an adjective, it refers to a quantity of something, it is not a noun describing an elementary object in itself. We can talk of quanta of energy, or quanta of angular momentum for example. But there is no elementary particle called a "quantum". I'm not sure how I can prove that, since it would be trying to prove a negative. If Schneibster insists there are elementary particles called "quanta", then the burden of proof is with him.

My fourth criticism was of his description of what quantum mechanics actually is. Unfortunately, there seem to be many various definitions and so I'll leave it to everyone to look them up themselves and decide if Schneibster's statements are accurate. Here is a possible starting point: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...echanics&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title

My fifth criticism was of this statement, "Heisenberg proposed that there were certain parameters of quanta that could not be simultaneously measured". Here is a link to an overview of the Uncertainty Principle, from the American Institute of Physics: http://www.aip.org/history/heisenberg/p08.htm

The more precisely the position is determined, the less precisely the momentum is known in this instant, and vice versa.


From another page also from the American Institute of Physics http://www.aip.org/history/heisenberg/p08a.htm (my emphasis):

Heisenberg showed that no matter how accurate the instruments used, quantum mechanics limits the precision when two properties are measured at the same time.


Which clearly refutes the claim that they cannot be simultaneously measured.

With regard to the other claim of Schneibster's that Heisenberg was at first a proponent of the idea that measurement of one quantity would disturb another but changed his mind later, I offer Heisenberg's own words from his book, Physics and Philosophy, 1958, Chapter 3:

It has been said that the atom consists of a nucleus and electrons moving around the nucleus; it has also been stated that the concept of an electronic orbit is doubtful. One could argue that it should at least in principle be possible to observe the electron in its orbit. One should simply look at the atom through a microscope of a very high revolving power, then one would see the electron moving in its orbit. Such a high revolving power could to be sure not be obtained by a microscope using ordinary light, since the inaccuracy of the measurement of the position can never be smaller than the wave length of the light. But a microscope using ~~-rays with a wave length smaller than the size of the atom would do. Such a microscope has not yet been constructed but that should not prevent us from discussing the ideal experiment.

Is the first step, the translation of the result of the observation into a probability function, possible? It is possible only if the uncertainty relation is fulfilled after the observation. The position of the electron will be known with an accuracy given by the wave length of the y-ray. The electron may have been practically at rest before the observation. But in the act of observation at least one light quantum of the y-ray must have passed the microscope and must first have been deflected by the electron. Therefore, the electron has been pushed by the light quantum, it has changed its momentum and its velocity, and one can show that the uncertainty of this change is just big enough to guarantee the validity of the uncertainty relations. Therefore, there is no difficulty with the first step.


and later in the same chapter:

The observation itself changes the probability function discontinuously; it selects of all possible events the actual one that has taken place. Since through the observation our knowledge of the system has changed discontinuously, its mathematical representation also has undergone the discontinuous change and we speak of a 'quantum jump'. When the old adage 'Natura non facit saltus' is used as a basis for criticism of quantum theory, we can reply that certainly our knowledge can change suddenly and that this fact justifies the use of the term 'quantum jump'.

Therefore, the transition from the 'possible' to the 'actual' takes place during the act of observation. If we want to describe what happens in an atomic event, we have to realize that the word 'happens' can apply only to the observation, not to the state of affairs between two observations. It applies to the physical, not the psychical act of observation, and we may say that the transition from the 'possible' to the 'actual' takes place as soon as the interaction of the object with the measuring device, and thereby with the rest of the world, has come into play; it is not connected with the act of registration of the result by the mind of the observer. The discontinuous change in the probability function, however, takes place with the act of registration, because it is the discontinuous change of our knowledge in the instant of registration that has its image in the discontinuous change of the probability function.


I cannot prove the negative that Heisenberg didn't change his mind later, but I have never seen any evidence that he did, and the burden of proof that he did again lies with Schneibster.


My sixth criticism was of Schneibster's claim that, "Einstein, Podolsky, and Rosen proposed that one consider a pair of photons emitted simultaneously from an atom under very carefully controlled conditions. Because of these conditions, they could show that the spins of the two photons had to be opposite from one another, due to conservation of angular momentum"

Here is a link to the actual, original EPR paper: http://prola.aps.org/abstract/PR/v47/i10/p777_1 Read it and see for yourself that what Schneibster claims is not true. You don't have to understand all the math just to see that there is no mention of photons or angular momentum etc.


My seventh criticism was of Schneibster's claim that, "Bohr answered that in fact, the parameters did not have any value" and that Bohr "basically ignored" the issue of non-locality.

Here is a link to Bohr's actual, original paper: http://prola.aps.org/pdf/PR/v48/i8/p696_1 Again, read it for yourself and decide if the above is an accurate summary of Bohr's argument.

And with regard to non-locality, here is what Bohr thought about it, from: Bohr, N., 1935, "Space and Time in Nuclear Physics", Mss 14, March 21, Manuscript Collection, Archive for the History of Quantum Physics, American Philosophical Society, Philadelphia.

If we only imagine the possibility that without disturbing the phenomena we determine through which hole the electron passes, we would truly find ourselves in irrational territory, for this would put us in a situation in which an electron, which might be said to pass through this hole, would be affected by the circumstance of whether this [other] hole was open or closed; but … it is completely incomprehensible that in its later course [the electron] should let itself be influenced by this hole down there being open or shut. (Bohr 1935b)


Bohr is calling non-locality, "irrational territory".


My eighth criticism was of Schneibster's claim that EPR (EPR started in May 1935) led to the debate over wave function collapse etc. and that the debate continued until Bell in the 1960's. The debate started right from the outset of Copenhagen, somewhere around 1925-1927. The American Institute of Physics article on Heisenberg shows some of this: http://www.aip.org/history/heisenberg/p09.htm And I don't think I need to explicitly prove that the debate didn't end in the 1960's with Bell - just look at any current physics list!

With regard to the measurement problem, here is Stanford University's take on it: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-measurement/ decide for yourself if Schneibster's summary of it is accurate.


My ninth criticism was of Schneibster's claim (speaking of Bell) that, "What he showed was that although the spin on a second axis was not completely dependent upon the spin on the first, the probability of a certain spin was different if the other spin had some known value than if it did not have any value"

Here is a link to Bell's original paper: http://www.drchinese.com/David/Bell.pdf Again, read it for yourself and see if you can see the above argument anywhere in it.


My tenth criticism also refers to the above paper and in particular that Bell had not shown the inequalities or how to implement them. Again it can be seen that Bell did give a complete argument in his paper. The inequalities are present in that paper (starting with equation 15 onward).

My eleventh criticism was that Aspect in 1982 "proved beyond reasonable doubt that in fact the distribution of values on the measured axis was inconsistent with the existence of a real value consistent with the value measured on the other photon for that axis. The value did not exist, in other words; and "spooky action at a distance" was in fact reality."

Apart from the fact that the two claims (non-existence of the values and non-locality) are each separate possible explanations (but not at the same time) and that the above statement hedges between two different things, you only need to type the following, "aspect experiment conclusive" into google (without the quotes!) to see any number of criticisms and arguments over the meaning and validity of the Aspect experiment.
 
Not a stupid question. It is indeed very confusing. The Afshar paper, linked to above, starts like this:

I think it's best to think of a quantum mechanical wavefunction as being a very abstract, mathematical sort of thing.

A sound wave is fairly concrete: at this point in the room the air pressure is now high, at that point it's now low, etc. A moment later, the pressures at the various points are slightly different than they were, as the wave has propagated a bit. Etc. With each point in space and time, there is associated a number---the air pressure there and then.

A (classical) magnetic field is not too much harder. With each point in space and time there is still associated a value, except now the value isn't a single number---it's a vector, which describes both the strength of the field and its direction: if you put a compass there and then, 1) in which direction would the field cause it to point if it were free to rotate, and 2) how strong would you have to be to hold the compass needle pointing in the wrong direction?

One weird thing about quantum mechanical wavefunctions is that their values aren't real numbers or vectors, but complex numbers. Air pressure is a real number. Magnetic field strength is a vector. What is one of these complex numbers? It's called an amplitude. The square of its absolute value is real, and represents the probability that a certain measurement will yield a certain result. But what is it, itself, really? Who knows? Beats me. And a lot of other people. But we can't simply replace everywhere the complex amplitude by the corresponding real probability; in order to account for interference phenomena, the equations that describe the evolution of the wavefunction rely essentially on its complexity.

Another weird thing about quantum mechanical wavefunctions is that, except in the simplest of cases, they aren't functions of points in 3D space, but of "points" in much higher-dimensional "spaces".

An analogy: If they're all independent, a bunch of real-valued random variables isn't much more complicated than a single one. There are just more of them, that's all. But what if they're correlated? Then it's not enough to know the (one-dimensional) density of each. To completely characterize n random variables, you need an n-dimensional joint density: for each particular n-tuple of values, what's the probability that the n variables simultaneously take on those n values?

Parts of a compound quantum system can similarly be correlated, so that no part has individually its own wavefunction, but rather the system as a whole has one big, high-dimensional wavefunction. The Wikepedia article on wave functions describes this pretty well.

And if all that isn't weird enough: in quantum field theory, not only can there be uncertainty about the positions of quanta, and not only can there be correlations between these uncertain positions, but there can also be uncertainty even about the number of quanta in the system. Are there two photons here? Or are there three? Yes.

How does the saying go? "Life is complex. It has real parts and it has imaginary parts." Something like that...


I think it's also worth mentioning that the Schrodinger wavefunction amplitude is dimensionless. Real wave amplitudes have a dimension, for example the amplitude of waves in water may be measured in terms of length (i.e. how high the wave is).
 
To Cuddles and Dodge69: Thanks for your explanations. I found the statistical references to be particularly enlightening; that's my field so I could relate to that the best. Still, while I can't say I understand it, it is at least understandable that it's incomprehensible. Thanks.
 
With regard to my criticisms of Schneibster's explanation above, I will list evidence in support of my claims that he is substantially wrong.

An impressively detailed smackdown. I tip my hat to you, sir.
 
The puerile posts (and comments about it) have been split to AAH. Continuing such behaviour will result in further Mod action which may include suspension.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat
 
Hmmm...I wonder if Afshar has inadvertantly made a physical confirmation of the existence of the "ether." That is, with both silts open, the particle is confirmed to enter only one slit and and strike one detector, while the wave created by the particle's passage through the ether is confirmed to enter both slits and thus creates an interference pattern.

Perhaps you missed my point. There is no wave "created" by the particle. The wave is the particle, and vice-versa. Anything the wave does, the particle does. Regardless of the arguments Schneibster is having with the others, this is one thing I think he has right. He calls them "quanta", which is not strictly accurate (the word bascially means "a discrete amount"), I like the word "wavicle". The point is, you have to stop thinking about particles and waves. You have to think of something that can behave as either as particle or a wave depending on the situation. And of course, if this experiment is correct you have to think of them as something that can behave as both at the same time.

I don't see the connection between discreteness and finite "length" of waves.

If a wave/photon is given off by something, it will only be given off for a short time, this is what I mean by discrete. Radiation is not given off continuously, it is given off in short pulses, and each of these pulses can be called a photon or wave train/packet, depending on how you look at it. The length of the wave train is simply the time it is emitted multiplied by the speed of light.#

Is "length" the right word, anyway? Space has three dimensions, not one.

Space can have as many dimensions as it likes, but light, and all particles and waves, travel in straight lines in one of them at any given time. In fact, light requires at least 3 dimensions since it is composed of oscilating electric and magnetic fields. The fields are at right angles to each other and are both at right angles to the direction of travel. Any less than 3 dimensions and this couldn't work.
 

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