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Enough to make one support the death penalty...

MontagK505 said:
And the fact that you feel good about this doesn't make you a bad person. To the more sanctimonious posters it does suggest you may be a sociopath.
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I'd say that it suggests a lack of reflection on the topic, if I were one of those sanctimonious posters.

Cain is clearly not a bad person.
 
Cainkane1 said:
ust because I believe the punishment should fit the crime doesn't mean I'm a sociopath.
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To fit the specific crime you described, they should have raped him anally with a spiked dildo and then crushed his larynx and let him strangle. None of this gas chamber "malfunction" business. Some people would regard me as a sociopath for even imagining this. :)
 
Dr. Keith said:
I'd say that it suggests a lack of reflection on the topic, if I were one of those sanctimonious posters.

Cain is clearly not a bad person.
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What you say is probably true about Cain. The lack of reflection on the topic is a criticism that could be made by critics who don't approve of the conclusions made by others on the same topic. As for the sanctimonious posters that is a subjective opinion. But, if the shoe fits, they can feel free to put it on their heads. :)
 
trustbutverify said:
Frankly, I wouldn't know how or where to draw that line, and yes, it is dangerous for obvious reasons. I do know that the crimes described in the OP and post #203 would easily qualify.
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The difficulty is between making a subjective judgment with regards to where that line is for you and acknowledging the inherent bias of entitlement to make such final judgments with regards to others that you may or may not have complete information in regards to. Good people make bad choices and bad decisions everyday, the key point is in remembering that acknowledging a bad choice does not make a final decision with regards to whether we are good people,...or not. Bad choices and decision are "bad" so that we strive not to make them casually or habitually, repeating such behavior thoughtlessly. When something switches from a bad decision that is hard to make and causes hard considerations, to being rationalized as a good decision,...the bar starts lowering and the hat becomes darker grey. Life should be about bleaching our hats and striving to counterbalance the less bad choices we too often find as our only options in life, rather than trying to convince ourselves that the wine stains of our choices are actually a whiter shade of pale.
 
Cainkane1 said:
ust because I believe the punishment should fit the crime doesn't mean I'm a sociopath.
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Even if the crimes were the work of a sociopath? Isn't that agreeing with an irrational approach to problems and conflict?
 
fuelair said:
Terminal education is for those who rape, murder, torture, kidnap, mutilate (etc.) others who did not criminally assault or otherwise massively harm them. It has nothing to do with thieves, smokers. speeders, red light runners, drunks, scofflaws (etc) who do not cause major physical or mental harm to their victims, Jail is for the latter with restitution where possible.
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Really ? People who run red lights kill people on a regular basis, and many of them are recidivists. Wouldn't it be better to kill them and avoid further bloodshed of the innocent ? Thieves destroy people's futures. Same question.

Your point was that death prevented recidivism. Now you are adding further conditions. Could you name all of the reasoning behind your support for the death penalty, so we can actually debate your position, then ?

It is based on the idea and the personal preference of many of those I agree with that "persons" in that first group need to no longer be able to do the things they chose to do and need to be very much aware as they leave us that they were bad and useless.
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In prison you have the same result. Plus you can get the convict to work, and perhaps rehabilitate, which you don't get with death. Plus I'd rather be pretty damn sure I've got the right person before killing them, and I don't think we can be that sure often enough.
 
Belz... said:
I said so before: People supporting the death penalty do so out of an emotional need for revenge. Humans want to hurt the people who bother them, and people who commit heinous crimes bother us a lot.
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Some people believe punishment should be an important part of a criminal justice system, and some people don't. Unfortunately, the people who don't sometimes have a holier than thou complex.
 
Belz... said:
Which supports my answer to your last question: it's about how the crime makes you feel.
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It's healthy and humane to be outraged when confronted with savage, outrageously cruel crimes. And it's appropriate that a societies collective sense of moral and ethical standards play some part in it's formulation of justice policy.

If you think your views on criminal justice aren't shaped by the way feel about those policies, you're simply fooling yourself.
 
trustbutverify said:
Some people believe punishment should be an important part of a criminal justice system, and some people don't. Unfortunately, the people who don't sometimes have a holier than thou complex.
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Perhaps. I just don't see the point of punishment. When was the last time someone slapped you on the wrist and you "improved" your behaviour because of it ?

It's healthy and humane to be outraged when confronted with savage, outrageously cruel crimes.
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There is a difference between being outraged, and wishing for the person who outraged you to be hurt, maimed, or killed.

And it's appropriate that a societies collective sense of moral and ethical standards play some part in it's formulation of justice policy.
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You omitted the part that links this sentence with the previous one, because I DON'T think it's appropriate that a society's collective sense of outrage and revenge play some part in it's formulation of justice policy.

If you think your views on criminal justice aren't shaped by the way feel about those policies, you're simply fooling yourself.
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Of course, feelings have something to do with everything humans do, but my view isn't dominated by feelings, which is my point.
 
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MontagK505 said:
The lack of reflection on the topic is a criticism that could be made by critics who don't approve of the conclusions made by others on the same topic.
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The conclusions bother me some, the process bothers me more. We improve processes elsewhere to great benefit, why not here? What does the evidence say? Why go with our gut in this one area when we would laugh at doing so elsewhere?

This is starting to remind me of the spanking threads. We have the research that shows better alternatives by every single measure, but the "old way" just feels right, so we keep on with it out of tradition. I'm glad that's not our approach to medicine or physics, but why is it our approach to discipline?

As for the sanctimonious posters that is a subjective opinion. But, if the shoe fits, they can feel free to put it on their heads. :)
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If pointing out flawed reasoning is sanctimonious, then that is shoe I will proudly wear on my head. :)
 
MontagK505 said:
First of all the guillotine is simpler, it doesn't require extensive training to use, you don't need to find a vein etc. Rocket sleds etc. are complex and prone to fail.

Who you think would deserve to be executed, is of course, based on what standards one holds.

I think someone like Cainkane1's rapist who crushes the throat of his three-old victim to keep her from testifying would qualify under my sociopathic, barbaric, standards. A tree shredder is a pleasant fantasy, but a guillotine would serve the same purpose. It also is simpler to use. Having the shredder fail partway thru would be a touch inhumane. :)
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:D:D:D:D:D
 
Trakar said:
The difficulty is between making a subjective judgment with regards to where that line is for you and acknowledging the inherent bias of entitlement to make such final judgments with regards to others that you may or may not have complete information in regards to. Good people make bad choices and bad decisions everyday, the key point is in remembering that acknowledging a bad choice does not make a final decision with regards to whether we are good people,...or not. Bad choices and decision are "bad" so that we strive not to make them casually or habitually, repeating such behavior thoughtlessly. When something switches from a bad decision that is hard to make and causes hard considerations, to being rationalized as a good decision,...the bar starts lowering and the hat becomes darker grey. Life should be about bleaching our hats and striving to counterbalance the less bad choices we too often find as our only options in life, rather than trying to convince ourselves that the wine stains of our choices are actually a whiter shade of pale.
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When the bad choice is to rape and kill a child there is no question at all about what kind of person they were or why they did it. Anybody who thinks there is might as well become a priest or moral equivalent or a very liberal (I am a democrat and a distinct liberal in almost all areas - crimes involving mental or physical harm to innocents is one of those where I hope I will never become a liberal - and I cannot imagine a situation where I would change) person..
 
[drl
Dr. Keith said:
If pointing out flawed reasoning is sanctimonious, then that is a shoe I will proudly wear on my head. :)
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newyorkguy said:
Me too! :cool:
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You have to be careful what you say on the Internet.

“Put Shoe on Head” is an online prank/raid coordinated by a group of YTMND users...participants targeted individual chatrooms on LiveJasmin.com, a webcam/porn site featuring live chat with girls, many of whom apparently do not speak fluent English....The first performer to put her shoe on her head was a girl who went by the username Sharissa. Link
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:boggled: Know your meme!

Who knew? :rolleyes: [/drl
 
Belz... said:
Really ? People who run red lights kill people on a regular basis, and many of them are recidivists. Wouldn't it be better to kill them and avoid further bloodshed of the innocent ? Thieves destroy people's futures. Same question.

Your point was that death prevented recidivism. Now you are adding further conditions. Could you name all of the reasoning behind your support for the death penalty, so we can actually debate your position, then ?



In prison you have the same result. Plus you can get the convict to work, and perhaps rehabilitate, which you don't get with death. Plus I'd rather be pretty damn sure I've got the right person before killing them, and I don't think we can be that sure often enough.
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I have no interest of any kind in rehabilitation of anything that chooses to or otherwise kills, mutilates, physically harms or mentally harms to the level that causes a change of mental function or loss of mental function to another person who has not responsibly caused same without legitimate reason to it. For sociopaths and psychopaths this is upscaled by a factor of 2 or greater. I'm not sure what other points you are speaking of and, in all fairness I do not remember using the word recidivism - although I easily grant that is another factor that is, by default, achieved by terminal education.

The purpose of terminal education is to be certain that the perpetrator of the crime for which it is applied leaves this vale of tears with screams of agony and prayers to be allowed to die causing recognition of the great wrong he/she did and the true sorrow they have forever for doing it and the promises they will never do it again until at last they are educated and are dead. The only pleasure in this is the knowledge that the person guilty of what they chose to do died knowing it was wrong and that people knew it was wrong - and hopefully those who might be tempted to follow in their footsteps might get the same idea.

Oh , the reason it is called terminal education is because it is the only philosophy of education that ensures the lesson is learned and the learner will therefore never do the bad thing again.
 
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