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Empirical Proofs of reincarnation.

You're judging me too harshly. I do not want the critics to lower their standards, I just simply do not have time to respond to all posts.

Let's make a deal -- I accept that I am wrong if you explain how Joe was able to reproduce phrases in a Turkic language. You could say that Natasha's parentsfooled me by teaching her Russian because it is very helpful for a person (tons of scientific literature is published in Russian). The same true about Henrik -- Spanish is one of the world's leading languages. But the language that Joe reproduced is completely useless, it might be as well a dead language, it is not even Turkish. Who in his
right mind would learn it just to fool me? Besides, Joe would have known in advance that some day I will ask him if he wants to recall his past life

Start by proving "Joe" exists. Then account for his time from about the age of three on to establish there's no reasonable possibility that he picked up a Turkic language and then provide evidence that "Joe" ever said anything in Turkic. Once you do all that we can start looking at the whys and wherefores of how he ended up speaking a Turkic language. Please remember we're still on the "did Buddha make all this up?" phase.
 
Some opponents asserted that I use circular logic – I assume that past lives exist, after that I use this assumption to prove that they exist. But this is not how my past lives research started.

I was not born into a Buddhist or a Hinduism family, so reincarnation was not a part of my beliefs system; the idea seemed interesting but abstract to me when I encountered it.

I was an agnostic during my undergraduate years, I didn’t care much about religion and atheism, I was too busy taking day courses, working part-time at nights and dating female college students. It was my senior year when I participated in a discussion about past lives.

Eleven students, including myself, were sitting at the college cafeteria table and listening to two graduate students who were trying to convince us that reincarnation is real. One of them was a very intelligent PhD student from Thailand who happened to be a Buddhist.

The audience was skeptical, one of my peers said, “Can you prove that?”
The PhD guy told us how Buddha dealt with this topic. Some of the newcomers were atheists and followers of local religions that denied the reincarnation; one of them said, “Can you prove that real lives do exist?” Buddha said, “Did you ever have a dream of being someone else and, in your dream, speaking a foreign language that you cannot understand?” “It happened to me couple of times,” said the newcomer. “Where do you think that language came from?” said Buddha. “I invented it,” said the newcomer. “If you invented it then why you cannot understand it?” said Buddha.

“What does it all mean?” said my friend. “It means that sometimes people recall their past lives in a dream,” said the PhD guy and continued, “Would you accept reincarnation as a hypothesis?” “I would accept anything as a hypothesis if there is a way to test it,” I said. “There is a past life recall procedure, do you want to test it? If you do, I will translate it for you, “said the PhD guy. “Actually, the procedure is in the book Buddhist Scriptures,” said his friend.

One month after this conversation on the Spring break I tried the procedure on myself and it worked. I modified the procedure and Joe became my first subject. My next subject was my mother. In her case the result was inconclusive – she recalled her life in Germany and even a conversation with her parents. However, she learned German at the school, so her testimony is not a proof. I concluded my research, got a job offer from a Los Angeles company and moved to the West Coast where I met Natasha.

Moving on to the next topic – some opponents strongly hinted that I am a megalomaniac or something like that; people like me read plenty of simplistic articles on various topics and pretend they know everything, but they are glib. Well, I have couple of dozens of books on philosophy and Buddhism and I can prove that by quoting them. By the way, these books cannot be found on the Internet because of the copyrights laws.

To be honest, there is a book that I cannot understand, it is written by Godel and it contains his famous theorem on the propositions that cannot be proved. Currently I do not have enough knowledge of predicate logic to understand his book; I would have to study Volume I of Principia Matematica by Russell and Whitehead to understand Godels’ book. I have Principia Matematica but I do not have time to read it. On this optimistic note I conclude this post.
 
Some opponents asserted that I use circular logic – I assume that past lives exist, after that I use this assumption to prove that they exist. But this is not how my past lives research started.

Irrelevant. The proof you posted relies on circular logic regardless of how you came to your belief or how long it took. You don't seem to understand what actually makes a circular argument circular.

Moving on to the next topic – some opponents strongly hinted that I am a megalomaniac or something like that...

No. Stop trying to put arguments in your opponents' mouths that they never made and which they specifically disavowed. No one accused you of being a megalomaniac or being mentally ill. You are not a victim.

As to your evident motivations, you are the one constantly claiming you are smarter than all your opponents, but you simply aren't. You can't demonstrate a correct understanding of most of the topics you bring up. And, being "immune to criticism," you don't seem interested in learning from others. Understand that you cannot fool or gaslight people into thinking you're a genius.

You claim to have little time to address your critics and you use this claim as an excuse to pick and choose who you will respond to. Since you post lengthy irrelevant stories, you clearly have time to address more argument content. Stop telling irrelevant stories and start engaging the debate. Your'e being very rude.
 
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The audience was skeptical, one of my peers said, “Can you prove that?”
The PhD guy told us how Buddha dealt with this topic. Some of the newcomers were atheists and followers of local religions that denied the reincarnation; one of them said, “Can you prove that real lives do exist?” Buddha said, “Did you ever have a dream of being someone else and, in your dream, speaking a foreign language that you cannot understand?” “It happened to me couple of times,” said the newcomer. “Where do you think that language came from?” said Buddha. “I invented it,” said the newcomer. “If you invented it then why you cannot understand it?” said Buddha.


By that reasoning, everything in dreams must be real. "Where did the cat you dreamed about come from?" "I invented it." "If you invented it why couldn't you stop if from flying away?"

To be honest, there is a book that I cannot understand, it is written by Godel and it contains his famous theorem on the propositions that cannot be proved. Currently I do not have enough knowledge of predicate logic to understand his book; I would have to study Volume I of Principia Matematica by Russell and Whitehead to understand Godels’ book. I have Principia Matematica but I do not have time to read it. On this optimistic note I conclude this post.


You can read "Godel, Escher, Bach" by Douglas Hofstadter instead.
 
By that reasoning, everything in dreams must be real.

And it still doesn't explain why Natasha could understand her lingua obscura and Joe could not. Inconsistent results pose problems for empirical tests.

The scientia obscura proof works for clairvoyance and demon possession too, without modification. Buddha the Claimant has a novel approach for distinguishing the "correct" cause: he doesn't believe in any of those, so he doesn't consider them.

Buddha, what observations did you make that faslify that Natasha was possessed by an evil spirit and not reincarnated?
 
As I said yesterday about this thread, "Buddha" has thrown in the towel. He's now probably out to write his "book" about the probable real life of Buddha so now broadly conceived hagiography is his intended next victim as he chooses markets and not what he really knows about.
 
One month after this conversation on the Spring break I tried the procedure on myself and it worked.

Cool. Can you please relate as many details as you can remember from your former life? Can you also describe what steps you too to verify the details that you did remember?
 
Buddha: do people remember the languages they used in their past lives?
I don't understand why people would have a memory of something that was said to them, or that they read (singular events) but not have memory of what it meant. If you think about it, whatever language we learn as infants must be one of the things most embedded in our mental wiring. We think in it, dream in it, etc. Also, if you don't know a language at all, then the sounds don't really distinguish themselves. The idea that you could reproduce a sentence that you heard in a language which you never heard before is rather, ahem, unlikely.
 
I don't understand why people would have a memory of something that was said to them, or that they read (singular events) but not have memory of what it meant. If you think about it, whatever language we learn as infants must be one of the things most embedded in our mental wiring. We think in it, dream in it, etc. Also, if you don't know a language at all, then the sounds don't really distinguish themselves. The idea that you could reproduce a sentence that you heard in a language which you never heard before is rather, ahem, unlikely.

Buddha is mixing up the different uses of the scientia obscura proof. The one where you reproduce knowledge you don't understand is for demon possession, astral projection, and clairvoyance. The gist is that you're channeling information that originates in a another being to which you don't have conscious access. In his haste to furrow already well plowed ground, Buddha has hitched up his plow backwards.
 
If you think about it, whatever language we learn as infants must be one of the things most embedded in our mental wiring.

Speaking as someone who as a young child had one first language that they can now barely speak, I'd say that the language skills we have when we're an infant are highly malleable and require practise and use to maintain.

Not even just as an infant. Not quite the same thing, but as part of a project several years ago I was interviewing various highschoolers. One sixteen year old girl was Chinese and had been sent to a posh boarding school over here when she was 12, and had remained here during the holidays. She couldn't speak a word of English when she first arrived. To speak to her then, you'd never know she wasn't born and bred here. She said that she now even thought in English, rather than Mandarin.

Children are surprisingly plastic, and there's nothing innate about language.
 
Buddha is mixing up the different uses of the scientia obscura proof. The one where you reproduce knowledge you don't understand is for demon possession, astral projection, and clairvoyance. The gist is that you're channeling information that originates in a another being to which you don't have conscious access. In his haste to furrow already well plowed ground, Buddha has hitched up his plow backwards.

Strange how there has never been an instance of one of those stories being objectively verifiable. I don't think I'll ever understand why some folks have as much or more faith in subjectivity than in objectivity.
 
I don't think I'll ever understand why some folks have as much or more faith in subjectivity than in objectivity.


I understand why people have faith in their own subjective experiences. It's difficult to come to terms with the fact that the evidence of one's senses (and the process of memory) might be different from reality. I mean, if people could easily disregard their own senses, magicians would be unemployed.

From an evolutionary perspective, it's pretty easy to understand why people have faith in the stories of others. It's basically the very thing that most separates us from other species. We can easily communicate complex information to others and they can learn from it. If John at work tells me the snack machine is broken, I probably won't put money in the snack machine.

And it's kind of easy to understand is why people would prefer subjective information when objective, repeatable information is available. Science is hard. I don't know anything about genetics. So, when I hear information from a geneticist, it's not much different from hearing any other story. I have to have some level of trust that the story is true.

What I don't understand is why people would prefer stories to easily verifiable information. One doesn't need any special expertise to realize that names and dates are missing from a tale, making it impossible to investigate. And yet, my mother-in-law keeps sharing fake posts about missing children.

And here is where Buddha loses my vote for any sort of credibility. His theories of proof or reincarnation or Popper or whatever nonsense are completely beside the point. He hasn't given sufficient information for anyone to verify that his stories actually happened in any way to anybody ever (let alone the way he interprets them). And his weak excuse of "Why would I lie?" is meaningless. I don't know why he would lie. But I do know that I could check his stories out very easily if he would provide basic identifying information.

But he won't. People love telling stories and they love getting attention.
 
And here is where Buddha loses my vote for any sort of credibility. His theories of proof or reincarnation or Popper or whatever nonsense are completely beside the point. He hasn't given sufficient information for anyone to verify that his stories actually happened in any way to anybody ever (let alone the way he interprets them). And his weak excuse of "Why would I lie?" is meaningless. I don't know why he would lie. But I do know that I could check his stories out very easily if he would provide basic identifying information.

It doesn't even have to be lying. He could easily be misremembering, mistaken, confabulating (slightly different from lying, which implies a deliberate action), or he could have been the one lied to. There is absolutely no way the truth of these tales can be determined from the information given.
 
What I don't understand is why people would prefer stories to easily verifiable information.

Because, awesome though it is, reality isn't as fun or as special as things you can make up.

I don't believe in magic, but I do think it would be incredibly cool if magic were real. I genuinely wish that magic were real. But reality doesn't care one jot for what I do or do not wish. It just is what it is and, unfortunately for me, magic isn't real.

When it comes to afterlives, reincarnation, etc, the explanation is even simpler - people don't want to die. It's much nicer to believe that you're eternal in some way, without the difficulties and ravages of ageing, disease, or pain - or, at least, with them becoming largely irrelevant in the big picture - than it is to face the reality that this is it and that you'll never be 20 again, or get back the 5 years you spent in a loveless marriage, or never again be able to get out of a chair without having to think about it first. Reincarnation, in particular, is appealing because it's a do-over. You get to give it all another go, and can perhaps avoid the mistakes you made last time.

I understand why it's an appealing idea. There's just no evidence that it's actually true.
 
Start by proving "Joe" exists. Then account for his time from about the age of three on to establish there's no reasonable possibility that he picked up a Turkic language and then provide evidence that "Joe" ever said anything in Turkic. Once you do all that we can start looking at the whys and wherefores of how he ended up speaking a Turkic language. Please remember we're still on the "did Buddha make all this up?" phase.
I assumed that you believe me that Joe exists. If you don't we are back to square one -- as I said before, I cannot prove that I am a sane person, which means that I cannot prove that I was writing about real persons.
 

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