• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Empire State Building shooting

I gotta wonder about the 'score'- Bad guys killed by cops, vs cops killed with the cops own guns, vs innocents killed by cops ? Include the swat teams gong to the wrong house as 'innocents'.

But it'll be tough to account for the deterrent factor in the final tally.
 
ponderingturtle said:
I didn't know there was a post office in the empire state building.
Click to expand...

Most huge buildings have one. Looks like there was one there, but it was closed in 2009. When was the last "postal" shooting though? If we don't have another one soon, the word may leave the language.
 
Modified said:
Most huge buildings have one. Looks like there was one there, but it was closed in 2009. When was the last "postal" shooting though? If we don't have another one soon, the word may leave the language.
Click to expand...
And the one thing that moved fast through a post office would be forever gone?
 
casebro said:
I gotta wonder about the 'score'- Bad guys killed by cops, vs cops killed with the cops own guns, vs innocents killed by cops ? Include the swat teams gong to the wrong house as 'innocents'.

But it'll be tough to account for the deterrent factor in the final tally.
Click to expand...

Here's a video of the shooting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mypYl_NoYnM&feature=relmfu

I'd call it "suicide by cop", but who knows. Interesting, one of the cops stands his ground and has some cover (good), the other one runs backwards pretty quick firing as he does (bad).

Makes you wonder if the 12 lb trigger pull makes the double tap ineffective. Maybe this tragedy (or lack of which is plain dumb luck) as well as the lawsuits which will follow may cause the NYPD to reassess their special requirements regarding trigger pull.

Footnote. A bit of research shows some articles that indicate 12 lb trigger, 15% hit rate, 5.5 lb trigger, 51%. If that's accurate these guys actually needed to shoot 14 bullets to hit the guy twice and make him go down.

That scary.
 
Last edited:
The cops are lucky they didn't kill any of the bystanders.

It's crazy that the cops hit so many people aiming at one guy. Especially given their proximity to the shooter. That's insane to me... And I'll bet they won't get into the tiniest bit of trouble, even though they pulled a Yosemite Sam on a crowded NYC street.

12lb. triggers or not, am I the only person that finds that completely unacceptable? They don't have tazers or cops with good aim in NYC?

(keep in mind I write this from South Florida, home of America's most notoriously corrupt cops ;))
 
Last edited:
MikeSun5 said:
The cops are lucky they didn't kill any of the bystanders.

It's crazy that the cops hit so many people aiming at one guy. Especially given their proximity to the shooter. That's insane to me... And I'll bet they won't get into the tiniest bit of trouble, even though they pulled a Yosemite Sam on a crowded NYC street.

12lb. triggers or not, am I the only person that finds that completely unacceptable? They don't have tazers or cops with good aim in NYC?

(keep in mind I write this from South Florida, home of America's most notoriously corrupt cops ;))
Click to expand...


Accuracy on the range is pretty much not a determining factor WRT accuracy when returning fire on a living target. It's one of those things that there are no good solutions, just some that are more or less bad.
 
MikeSun5 said:
The cops are lucky they didn't kill any of the bystanders.

It's crazy that the cops hit so many people aiming at one guy. Especially given their proximity to the shooter. That's insane to me... And I'll bet they won't get into the tiniest bit of trouble, even though they pulled a Yosemite Sam on a crowded NYC street.

12lb. triggers or not, am I the only person that finds that completely unacceptable? They don't have tazers or cops with good aim in NYC?

(keep in mind I write this from South Florida, home of America's most notoriously corrupt cops ;))
Click to expand...

Just about every study shows that in a real fire fight most peoples accuracy sucks even at very short ranges.
 
mhaze said:
Interesting, one of the cops stands his ground and has some cover (good), the other one runs backwards pretty quick firing as he does (bad).
Click to expand...

The cop who stands his ground looks like he was in a proper shooting stance as well... as the other cop is running backwards firing indiscriminately with one hand.

I'm POSITIVE that is not standard operating procedure in a firefight, yet that cop will likely not so much as be spoken to about it because he's a hero now. And so far I haven't seen one headline that reads, "Crazy NYC gunman shoots one, police shoot ten in front of Empire State Bldg."

Again, they are EXTREMELY lucky no bystanders died. Correction, the BYSTANDERS are extremely lucky no bystanders died. That sort of thing doesn't seem to matter as far as police are concerned. Blue Wall and all that. :mad:
 
ponderingturtle said:
Just about every study shows that in a real fire fight most peoples accuracy sucks even at very short ranges.
Click to expand...

The figures I quoted:

12 lb trigger, 15% hit rate, 5.5 lb trigger, 51%.

Were for actual police firefights. There are two factors, aiming error and trigger pull error. Aiming might be a half foot, 12 pound pull several feet of error. The 12 lb pull comes from a theory that a heavy trigger would make it less likely for a gun to accidentally go off.

MikeSun5 said:
The cop who stands his ground looks like he was in a proper shooting stance as well... as the other cop is running backwards firing indiscriminately with one hand.

I'm POSITIVE that is not standard operating procedure in a firefight, yet that cop will likely not so much as be spoken to about it because he's a hero now. And so far I haven't seen one headline that reads, "Crazy NYC gunman shoots one, police shoot ten in front of Empire State Bldg."

Again, they are EXTREMELY lucky no bystanders died.....:
Click to expand...
Agreed. That guy skedaddling backwards firing was a problem, not a solution. Arm chair quarterbacking here, he should have dived for cover, left the shooting to the front guy.
 
Last edited:
mhaze said:
They will likely all turn out to have been hit by police fire.

NY cops use a 10 pound trigger pull on their sidearms, which means they can't hardly hit what they aim at on a good day.
Click to expand...

mhaze said:
Wrong as noted by another poster, but the ballistics reports will likely show up as I noted. Unfortunately.
Click to expand...

That's quite a sharp prediction.

I see that others have already linked to stories confirming that.

Here's their explanation:
The NYPD Explains Why Their Bullets Wounded Nine People Yesterday

Actually, it's not much of an explanation they give. Yours makes more sense.
 
mhaze said:
That guy skedaddling backwards firing was a problem, not a solution.
Click to expand...

I really am curious if he can get in trouble because of that...

Arm chair quarterbacking here, he should have dived for cover, left the shooting to the front guy.
Click to expand...

As someone who seems familiar with guns, what is the proper stance for firing a pistol with a 15lb-trigger at someone? (I have never shot a gun or received any training, but I'm sure that the one-handed backpedal --likely with closed eyes-- isn't standard for police. ;))
 
One proper stance, the other back pedaling. And no news of how many shots each fired, or which cop fired the fatal two, which cop fired all them ricochets.

Wanna take bets, anybody ?
 
MikeSun5 said:
I really am curious if he can get in trouble because of that...



As someone who seems familiar with guns, what is the proper stance for firing a pistol with a 15lb-trigger at someone? (I have never shot a gun or received any training, but I'm sure that the one-handed backpedal --likely with closed eyes-- isn't standard for police. ;))
Click to expand...

With a 15 pound trigger, you should probably throw it at the perp. :)
 
LTC8K6 said:
With a 15 pound trigger, you should probably throw it at the perp. :)
Click to expand...
And that's not even considering the problem of a woman with small and fairly weak hands.

"Sir, I need some help. Could you put that gun down for a second. This one that I've got pointed at you, could you hold it for me a moment? Good, just keep it pointed right at your heart while I grab that trigger with both hands. Wait, that doesn't work. You don't mind if I put one foot on your chest to push off while I pull the trigger, do you? I'll be careful to keep my boot out of the way of the bullet. Sound good? Okay, here we go!...."
 
casebro said:
One proper stance, the other back pedaling. And no news of how many shots each fired, or which cop fired the fatal two, which cop fired all them ricochets.

Wanna take bets, anybody ?
Click to expand...

According to this article,
Officer Craig Matthews shot seven times, and Officer Robert Sinishtaj fired nine times, police said. Neither had ever fired their weapons before on a patrol.
Click to expand...

I read elsewhere that the shooter had an 8-round pistol: 5 shots were fired into his target (whom he murdered), 2 shots were fired at the police, and 1 round was left in the weapon.

So the police officers shot 16 rounds, killing 1 and injuring 9, while the gunman shot 7 rounds, killing 1.

This sucks. :mad: I wonder how police departments could determine which of their officers are likely to forget all training and freak out during an actual violent encounter on the street?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom