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Emoto and Dean Radin should win the million dollar?

Vitor Moura

Critical Thinker
Joined
Jan 10, 2006
Messages
495
In 2003, [the magician] James Randi publicly offered Emoto one million dollars if his results can be reproduced in a double-blind study.

In 2006, Emoto published a paper together with Dean Radin and others in the peer-reviewed Explore: The Journal of Science and Healing


Dean Radin wrote:

The double-blind paper we published in 2006 was indeed peer-reviewed, and it showed a statistically significant difference between water that was "exposed" to intention vs. identical water set aside as a control. The magnitude of the observed effect was smaller than is implied in Emoto's books, but the direction of the effect was consistent with his claim.

(...)

As far as I know Emoto hasn't received the one million dollar check. Nor have I.


http://deanradin.blogspot.com/2010/06/maybe-check-is-in-mail.html
 
There are very specific guidelines for the prize to be awarded, in particular that the double bind experiment should be supervised by a mutually agreed team.

Are you really that naive that published articles (even if peer reviewed) can´t be willingfully or otherwise unbalanced?... so.. should they contact the JREF and succesfully reply the study in the proper conditions then they certainly should receive the prize :)

It isn't that hard... for a million dollars reward.. is it?
 
There are very specific guidelines for the prize to be awarded, in particular that the double bind experiment should be supervised by a mutually agreed team.

But Randi didn't mentioned anything about 'a mutually agreed team' in his public statement:

If he were to be blind to which words were being used to influence the water crystals, his search through the results looking for confirmation, would be inconclusive. I'll risk the JREF million-dollar prize on that statement. If Dr. Emoto wants to win the prize, let him agree to perform his tests in a double-blind fashion, and I predict he'll get fuzzy results that prove nothing.

It is clear that the only condition which Randi asked for was the double-blind procedure. 'A mutually agreed team' was not asked.

Are you really that naive that published articles (even if peer reviewed) can´t be willingfully or otherwise unbalanced?... so.. should they contact the JREF and succesfully reply the study in the proper conditions then they certainly should receive the prize :)

It isn't that hard... for a million dollars reward.. is it?

The only 'proper condition' which Randi asked for was the double blind procedure. See, Randi should be much more careful when he does this kind of statement. If Dean Radin or Emoto really want the million dollars, and Randi refuses to give it, I think Radin/Emoto's lawyer could easily win this issue in a court of justice.
 
If Dean Radin or Emoto really want the million dollars, and Randi refuses to give it, I think Radin/Emoto's lawyer could easily win this issue in a court of justice.
I think a dispute could easily be solved, if the study is as repeatable as claimed. Simply do it again with officials from the JREF present.
 
The only 'proper condition' which Randi asked for was the double blind procedure.

what do we have besides their say-so? There is no proof they actually did what they claim they have done.


See, Randi should be much more careful when he does this kind of statement.

I'll heed that advice once he's forced to hand over the money. I shan't be holding my breath, though.

If Dean Radin or Emoto really want the million dollars, and Randi refuses to give it, I think Radin/Emoto's lawyer could easily win this issue in a court of justice.

Sure. If they can proof that they carried out the experiments exactly as described and with exactly the same results as claimed.

Should be simple, too. They just have to repeat the experiment for the judges to show that it is at all possible and then provide some further evidence that they have done it before.

Of course, just applying for and going through with the MDC itself would be marginally easier, noticeably cheaper and it would carry a lot less risk on top of it.
 
The green text hurt my eyes. Please stop using different colours, it makes you look like a loon. Quote boxes are the preferred medium for presenting quotes.
 
But Randi didn't mentioned anything about 'a mutually agreed team' in his public statement:

He's discussing that the procedure itself (double blind experiment) was acceptable, he didn't said "the account of a double blind procedure is enough", he is not an idiot, with 1 000 000 reward you could easily get someone to publish your findings.

It is clear that the only condition which Randi asked for was the double-blind procedure. 'A mutually agreed team' was not asked.

It is not asked, but is implied, how else could you be sure a proper double blind procedure was done?



The only 'proper condition' which Randi asked for was the double blind procedure. See, Randi should be much more careful when he does this kind of statement. If Dean Radin or Emoto really want the million dollars, and Randi refuses to give it, I think Radin/Emoto's lawyer could easily win this issue in a court of justice.

I think Randi's statement is just fine, he's remarking that a double blind experiments with the variables implied would certainly win the prize, the procedure to win prize is clearly stated elsewhere.

You see.. you can't get a 1000 000 dollars just by arguing you done whatever paranormal feat you claim, even if you published it (even Nature has had to retract papers when frauds are revealed), you just have to apply by the prize rules, widely available, legally binding, fair and clear... or shut up and not get the prize :)

Also, no lawyer will take this case. For starters Randi's statement is no legally binding, and even being so he didn't said "a peer-reviewed publication of double blind studies would win the prize" that's very different to say: "the procedure would win the prize..."
 
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As far as I know Emoto hasn't received the one million dollar check. Nor have I.

Just show us a copy of the signed contract you had with Randi which agrees to the MDC Challenge rules and stipulates the demonstration required.

No signed contract? Well, go away and cry into your beer.

Norm
 
Vitor,

So far as I can tell, even if this "double-blind" experiment is accepted as valid, it doesn't meet Randi's criteria. What you guys did, so far as I can tell, is got a bunch of bottles of water, then Emoto just said, "this has been affected" and "this hasn't been affected". And he managed to get what you consider to be a statistically high success rate (although it is not clear to me how many different samples were used, which has a significant impact on interpretation of any results).

So let me present to you an example of what I believe Randi would look for as actual 'proof'; and then ask if you guys have actually done this.

Step 1: Water is put into several hundred identical bottles of water. The bottles are all supplied by an independent source, to ensure no secret marking is done; and all water comes from exactly the same source. Each bottle is labeled with a number, and nothing else.

Step 2: Various individuals -- all of whom are not part of Emoto's project, and who are not informed of the purpose of this study -- are given perhaps 20 bottles of water each, and told to express a particular emotion towards that water (hate, love, anger, happiness, etc.). An independent juror keeps track of the labeled bottles, and which emotions they were exposed to. 1/3 of the bottles of water are set aside as controls, and not exposed to any emotions.

Step 3: The water is frozen.

Step 4: Emoto is allowed to examine each bottle of water (but all bottles are handled by people who have no connection to him), in an entirely random order; but he must do it entirely alone, with nobody else there who might provide clues (and of course he is not allowed to observe or participate in any of the previous steps).

Step 5: Emoto must identify three things: 1) Has the water been exposed to emotions, or is it part of the control group? 2) If it has been exposed to emotions, were those emotions positive or negative? 3) What specific emotions were they exposed to?

RESULTS:

If Emoto fails to be statistically significant results to all three questions, his claims are demonstrated to be entirely false.

If Emoto gets statistically significant results to the first question, but not the latter two (which, so far as I can see, seems to be the question that was addressed in your "double-blind" study), it could be held as evidence that emotions have some kind of impact; but since it is impossible to distinguish positive from negative results, it still renders Emoto's claims to beneficial effects entirely pointless. Such a result would certainly raise enough questions to deserve more study (personally, I don't believe at a proper double-blind study would have any such results), but is nowhere near to deserving the million dollars.

If Emoto gets statistically significant results to the first two questions, that would be an indicator that there actually is a demonstrable difference in the properties of water exposed to positive or negative emotions, and would likely be worthy of a million dollar prize. However, from what you've told us, I don't see anything that indicates Emoto has accomplished this.

And if Emoto gets statistically significant results to all three questions, that would not only deserve a million dollars, he should get a Nobel prize for standing the world of physics on its head and revealing an entirely new principle to science.

I have strong doubts that the study provided enough scientific rigor to consider results to the first question reliable; and I've seen nothing to indicate answers to the second and third ones. Nor do I expect, if subjected to a proper double-blinded experiment, that Emoto ever will get statistically significant results to any of these questions.
 
Does anyone know anything about "Explore: The Journal of Science and Healing?" Who were the peers who reviewed the article? Were they there to witness the actual test? I'm a little suspect anytime the word "healing" is used---especially in the title of a periodical I've never heard of. How hard would it be to self-publish a "peer reviewed" paper? It probably depends on who you think your peers are.

Ward
 
Does anyone know anything about "Explore: The Journal of Science and Healing?" Who were the peers who reviewed the article? Were they there to witness the actual test? I'm a little suspect anytime the word "healing" is used---especially in the title of a periodical I've never heard of. How hard would it be to self-publish a "peer reviewed" paper? It probably depends on who you think your peers are.

Ward
transparent.gif

EXPLORE: The Journal of Science & Healing addresses the scientific principles behind, and applications of, evidence-based healing practices from a wide variety of sources, including conventional, alternative, and cross-cultural medicine. It is an interdisciplinary journal that explores the healing arts, consciousness, spirituality, eco-environmental issues, and basic science as all these fields relate to health

Current issue includes great things like chiropractic in children and a device to detect the "spirit and intention".
 
If Dean Radin or Emoto really want the million dollars, and Randi refuses to give it, I think Radin/Emoto's lawyer could easily win this issue in a court of justice.

So why the heck didn't they get it?

Oh, could it be because saying something either verbally or on a blog does not constitute a legal agreement?

And you either know that and just trying to troll or you're an idiot who truly believes that Randi is an idiot that can be easily cheated out of his money and Emoto is an idiot that doesn't bother calling a lawyer and claim his million.
 
Vitor, do you know how peer-review works, and what it actually accomplishes if it works correctly?

Do you understand its inherent limitations?
 
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If he were to be blind to which words were being used to influence the water crystals, his search through the results looking for confirmation, would be inconclusive. I'll risk the JREF million-dollar prize on that statement. If Dr. Emoto wants to win the prize, let him agree to perform his tests in a double-blind fashion, and I predict he'll get fuzzy results that prove nothing.

This is the quote from here right ?
http://www.randi.org/jr/052303.html
Let's spend a moment to wonder about how such a view can be brought about. Dr. Emoto might very well believe that he's doing science. But he's not. He does no double-blind procedures, for one thing, which dooms these amateur efforts, right from the beginning. If he were to be blind to which words were being used to influence the water crystals, his search through the results looking for confirmation, would be inconclusive. I'll risk the JREF million-dollar prize on that statement. If Dr. Emoto wants to win the prize, let him agree to perform his tests in a double-blind fashion, and I predict he'll get fuzzy results that prove nothing.

So first off it was not "James Randi publicly offered Emoto one million dollars if his results can be reproduced in a double-blind study"

It was a general statement and it is followed by "If Dr. Emoto wants to win the prize, let him agree to perform his tests in a double-blind fashion", now where is that agreement between Randi and Emoto, hmm?
 
If Dean Radin or Emoto really want the million dollars, and Randi refuses to give it, I think Radin/Emoto's lawyer could easily win this issue in a court of justice.


I doubt it, because all Randi did was to invite Emoto to apply for the MDC. Here's the statement from 2003 in which Randi "publicly offered Emoto one million dollars" (I notice that you didn't actually link to it):
I'll risk the JREF million-dollar prize on that statement. If Dr. Emoto wants to win the prize, let him agree to perform his tests in a double-blind fashion, and I predict he'll get fuzzy results that prove nothing.

Ah, but he'll have to get in line behind Sylvia Browne!


So, have Emoto and Radin "got in line" and sent their application in? Did they agree a protocol with the JREF?

ETA: I see Dancing David made much the same point while I was posting that.
 
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