Well, I've been out for a while. I could see that if he went to a therapist and was told to get a support dog, they would have provided some sort of vendor I think. But the phrase "issued" means means that it's being provided by the Marines. So he could have gone to a vendor, got a dog, and the Marines paid for it as a medical issue.
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Emotional Support Dog bites passenger on Delta Flight
- Thread starter JoeMorgue
- Start date
Well, I've been out for a while. I could see that if he went to a therapist and was told to get a support dog, they would have provided some sort of vendor I think. But the phrase "issued" means means that it's being provided by the Marines. So he could have gone to a vendor, got a dog, and the Marines paid for it as a medical issue.
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
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Sometimes reporters work in weird ways. The Marines may have issued a suggestion that he go get himself a support dog.
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
I assume your airline can easily accommodate my emotional support shark. She's a great white named Miss Bitey. She will require a pretzel snack.
Information Analyst
Penultimate Amazing
ddt
Mafia Penguin
You're absolutely right, I overlooked that statement. That seems to imply the USMC is the owner. And the next sentence that he himself is.
Indeed. This Daily Fail article calls Mundy a veteran. What happens with USMC property when you're released from service? Oh, and it also contains pictures of the injuries.
Thank you. At least that one was impounded in a shelter awaiting its trial. The "emotional support dog" in the OP's story was put on the flight in the cargo bay in a kennel and returned to its owner as if nothing had happened.
Mojo
Mostly harmless
A phlegmatic support dog might be less likely to bite.
shemp
a flimsy character...perfidious and despised
What kind of Marine on active duty needs a goddamn emotional support dog? The next time America's in trouble, we're not calling them!
Seriously, something about this story smells fishy. Any other sources?
Seriously, something about this story smells fishy. Any other sources?
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baron
Unregistered
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This dog was telling its owner in the only way it could that it was not comfortable and that it felt threatened, and the owner did nothing about it. And what's the betting that the guy tells the story, like all bad owners do in these situations, that the dog 'suddenly snapped' and 'attacked for no reason' and 'without warning'. Dogs don't attack for no reason and they don't attack without warning. Another dead dog due to a useless owner.
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
I'm curious if the dog had flown before or if the dog had a bad experience flying. I'd be willing to bet the dog hadn't been trained like a real service animal would be on how to deal with being in an airplane.
Again, the disclaimer that I've been out for a while, the Marines don't issue suggestions. Or, at least, I hope they don't. Far too soft in the wording.
If he was in the process of mustering out on a medical discharge, hence the need for an emotional support dog, he would still be on active duty waiting for the discharge to be cut.
I think it's just sloppy reporting as to the status of the owner.
Depends on the property, but most of it is returned but you can buy your way out of it if you really like some of it. My cold weather sleeping bag was downright awesome. But if he got the dog via a VA program, since he may be out of the service and in a transition state between USMC and the 1st Civ Div.
The university at which I work, being state-funded, is particularly cognizant of rules involving disabilities and is still trying to work out how to deal with "emotional support" animals. As of now any animal becomes an emotional support/service animal if the owner simply declares as much. No training or documentation is required. A student can bring such an animal into a class, even a laboratory class, and all the instructor is permitted to do is to ask what kind of service is this "service" dog intended to perform. If any kind of service is noted in response (typically emotional support) - the animal must be permitted to stay.
Currently as far as I understand, the university does not permit the instructor to raise questions of safety, such as would arise with a large fidgety dog being brought into in a chemistry laboratory. I think the university is just avoiding the issue for now and these safety questions will only be answered definitively when they end up in court- either because an instructor is sued due to ignoring the university rules and forcing an animal to be removed due to safety issues, or due to the animal's owner (and the university) being sued by someone hurt due to the presence of the animal in the class.
Thankfully as far as I understand it, exotic animals are excluded from the mandatory-permitted category and no one can bring in a 6 foot python or a cobra as an emotional support animal (I must admit I do not understand how there is a legal basis for such a species-discrimination, but I am grateful for it nonetheless).
Personally I think that this is one of those circumstances where one person's rights and needs conflict with those of others and a practical compromise is the only fair solution. No doubt having a well trained and behaved "service" animal can be very valuable for individuals with significant emotional problems and there are many contexts in which such an animal would not be disruptive or a concern. But there are other contexts in which such an animal is inappropriate or even dangerous: should a surgeon have a right to bring an emotional support dog into the surgical theater with them? Or what of a second student in a class or office who is deathly afraid of dogs (perhaps because they were one of those rare cases of having been previously bitten by a pit bull mix)? Don't they have a right to not find themselves seated next to student one's emotional support malamute? What if an "support dog" is untrained and/or very aggressive?
Defining the correct compromises will be the only way to make this work (the support animals has to have authentic and well documented training, it can be brought into this situation but not this other one, the student and their animal must sit away from any one who objects, etc.).
And I do feel that the individuals who use the current rules to bring their untrained pets with them into inappropriate situations just because they like the company of their pet, rather than truly having a serious emotional need, are equivalent to people who are fully mobile but park in handicap spaces using fraudulently obtained permits. They are abusing the rules meant to help people who have much more serious needs.
Currently as far as I understand, the university does not permit the instructor to raise questions of safety, such as would arise with a large fidgety dog being brought into in a chemistry laboratory. I think the university is just avoiding the issue for now and these safety questions will only be answered definitively when they end up in court- either because an instructor is sued due to ignoring the university rules and forcing an animal to be removed due to safety issues, or due to the animal's owner (and the university) being sued by someone hurt due to the presence of the animal in the class.
Thankfully as far as I understand it, exotic animals are excluded from the mandatory-permitted category and no one can bring in a 6 foot python or a cobra as an emotional support animal (I must admit I do not understand how there is a legal basis for such a species-discrimination, but I am grateful for it nonetheless).
Personally I think that this is one of those circumstances where one person's rights and needs conflict with those of others and a practical compromise is the only fair solution. No doubt having a well trained and behaved "service" animal can be very valuable for individuals with significant emotional problems and there are many contexts in which such an animal would not be disruptive or a concern. But there are other contexts in which such an animal is inappropriate or even dangerous: should a surgeon have a right to bring an emotional support dog into the surgical theater with them? Or what of a second student in a class or office who is deathly afraid of dogs (perhaps because they were one of those rare cases of having been previously bitten by a pit bull mix)? Don't they have a right to not find themselves seated next to student one's emotional support malamute? What if an "support dog" is untrained and/or very aggressive?
Defining the correct compromises will be the only way to make this work (the support animals has to have authentic and well documented training, it can be brought into this situation but not this other one, the student and their animal must sit away from any one who objects, etc.).
And I do feel that the individuals who use the current rules to bring their untrained pets with them into inappropriate situations just because they like the company of their pet, rather than truly having a serious emotional need, are equivalent to people who are fully mobile but park in handicap spaces using fraudulently obtained permits. They are abusing the rules meant to help people who have much more serious needs.
Cain
Straussian
I have an emotional support dog story.
An institution I teach at has an early college program: Qualified high school students can earn college credit (and high school credit). In this case, I would conduct class on the high school campus in the early morning of the Fall semester.
This high school's administration was thoroughly dysfunctional, but after the first few weeks, I thought the worst was behind me. After handing in the mid-term exam, a student asked if she could bring her emotional support dog to class. I said two things: 1) I don't think I have the authority to say "no" if it's a disability issue, so thanks for asking; 2) You've made it this far, and you're doing fine, so why upset the apple cart? She insisted that she was barely keeping things together. "Well... that settles it. Bring the dog." Another student testified, and I quote, "The dog is cool."
So at our next meeting, Clayton the dog comes in. Despite being pretty big, he looked like a total pussy. I mean... he seemed nervous as hell. So I'm up there, lecturing my cast-iron heart out, and Clayton whimpers. Students chuckled. I acknowledge it and move on, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, everyone's a critic."
After the third or fourth interruption, I said to the student we'll call Allie: "Allie: Never. Again." Some chuckles because it was light-hearted (but also serious, since I have a black, metallic heart).
At the end of that class, I saw students scratching Clayton, and asked if I could pet him. She said "sure." In my head, I made a note: "I don't think strangers are allowed to pet service dogs... This is a FAKE support animal!"
Anyway, she ignored my request and kept bringing the ******* dog, and he kept wimpering. Whenever he squealed, she'd pet him and feed him treats. If she wanted to turn something in at the front, the dog would follow her (even if she told him to stay put).
A month or so later, the students were taking a quiz, and Clayton was having an especially bad day, which distracted my quiz-takers. This... pissed me off. He can interrupt my lectures, fine, but not a quiz. After class I told her that her dog was an "emotional mess" (he seemed more dependent on her than vice-versa). I questioned whether he was a real service dog since anyone can buy a vest. She acted offended. Clayton apparently studied his nutz off to pass some kind of certification. Of course, she kept bringing him.
Fast forward a week or two later and I get an e-mail from the dean, explaining that a student lodged a formal complaint: I made her feel "uncomfortable." The dean cited the two comments I mentioned ("Never. Again." and "emotional mess."). She wanted to hear my side of the story, so I called her up and explained my suspicions that it was a fake service dog.
The dean said that if the animal was a distraction, then I might have some authority to remove it. Technically, the classroom needs to comply with college's standards (initially, I stupidly assumed that since she was bringing this dog to all of her classes for the day, it would have been vetted by the high school. Unfortunately, the high school's administration sucks balls). My dean quickly dug up a vague PDF stating students are allowed to have either a dog OR -- get this -- a small horse. Like a ******* pony?! I dunno.
I said that my mind would be put at ease if the dog was vetted by DSPS. At this point we didn't have many more classes, so I said I didn't really care if she kept bringing him as long as he stayed away during the final exam.
Ten minutes before the final, the student brings documentation from DSPS and a smug smile on her face. I was humbled. Without reading it, I asked, "what does it say?"
"Well, since you said Clayton was bothering people, I'm supposed to get a quiet, isolated environment," and she indicated taking the test in an empty anteroom connected to the classroom. This was an absolute no-go; I can't monitor her in there. I just let her sit in her usual seat and moved everyone else away. During the exam, I read the documents. First, they were dated 10 days prior, so I should have seen them much sooner. Also, there's NO mention of a goddamn dog. NONE. She gets extra time and an extra quiet area. Of course, the only one making noise is her fake service animal.
After her final exam was figured in, she had an overall grade of 89.7%. I ALWAYS round scores this high to an A... and so, that's what I did. But if I see her on the street, I'm going to call her out.
An institution I teach at has an early college program: Qualified high school students can earn college credit (and high school credit). In this case, I would conduct class on the high school campus in the early morning of the Fall semester.
This high school's administration was thoroughly dysfunctional, but after the first few weeks, I thought the worst was behind me. After handing in the mid-term exam, a student asked if she could bring her emotional support dog to class. I said two things: 1) I don't think I have the authority to say "no" if it's a disability issue, so thanks for asking; 2) You've made it this far, and you're doing fine, so why upset the apple cart? She insisted that she was barely keeping things together. "Well... that settles it. Bring the dog." Another student testified, and I quote, "The dog is cool."
So at our next meeting, Clayton the dog comes in. Despite being pretty big, he looked like a total pussy. I mean... he seemed nervous as hell. So I'm up there, lecturing my cast-iron heart out, and Clayton whimpers. Students chuckled. I acknowledge it and move on, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, everyone's a critic."
After the third or fourth interruption, I said to the student we'll call Allie: "Allie: Never. Again." Some chuckles because it was light-hearted (but also serious, since I have a black, metallic heart).
At the end of that class, I saw students scratching Clayton, and asked if I could pet him. She said "sure." In my head, I made a note: "I don't think strangers are allowed to pet service dogs... This is a FAKE support animal!"
Anyway, she ignored my request and kept bringing the ******* dog, and he kept wimpering. Whenever he squealed, she'd pet him and feed him treats. If she wanted to turn something in at the front, the dog would follow her (even if she told him to stay put).
A month or so later, the students were taking a quiz, and Clayton was having an especially bad day, which distracted my quiz-takers. This... pissed me off. He can interrupt my lectures, fine, but not a quiz. After class I told her that her dog was an "emotional mess" (he seemed more dependent on her than vice-versa). I questioned whether he was a real service dog since anyone can buy a vest. She acted offended. Clayton apparently studied his nutz off to pass some kind of certification. Of course, she kept bringing him.
Fast forward a week or two later and I get an e-mail from the dean, explaining that a student lodged a formal complaint: I made her feel "uncomfortable." The dean cited the two comments I mentioned ("Never. Again." and "emotional mess."). She wanted to hear my side of the story, so I called her up and explained my suspicions that it was a fake service dog.
The dean said that if the animal was a distraction, then I might have some authority to remove it. Technically, the classroom needs to comply with college's standards (initially, I stupidly assumed that since she was bringing this dog to all of her classes for the day, it would have been vetted by the high school. Unfortunately, the high school's administration sucks balls). My dean quickly dug up a vague PDF stating students are allowed to have either a dog OR -- get this -- a small horse. Like a ******* pony?! I dunno.
I said that my mind would be put at ease if the dog was vetted by DSPS. At this point we didn't have many more classes, so I said I didn't really care if she kept bringing him as long as he stayed away during the final exam.
Ten minutes before the final, the student brings documentation from DSPS and a smug smile on her face. I was humbled. Without reading it, I asked, "what does it say?"
"Well, since you said Clayton was bothering people, I'm supposed to get a quiet, isolated environment," and she indicated taking the test in an empty anteroom connected to the classroom. This was an absolute no-go; I can't monitor her in there. I just let her sit in her usual seat and moved everyone else away. During the exam, I read the documents. First, they were dated 10 days prior, so I should have seen them much sooner. Also, there's NO mention of a goddamn dog. NONE. She gets extra time and an extra quiet area. Of course, the only one making noise is her fake service animal.
After her final exam was figured in, she had an overall grade of 89.7%. I ALWAYS round scores this high to an A... and so, that's what I did. But if I see her on the street, I'm going to call her out.
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If I had not been following the discussion in the pit bull thread I would have assumed you were being satirical. But this post is completely consistent with your repeated and vocal advocacy of the position that dogs only attack because of the failures of their owners or of their victims. Although I initially doubted this viewpoint, your position has begun to grow on me, and not only do I now agree it is true of dogs, I believe it is also true of rattlesnakes. They only attack for a reason, such as hunger or feeling threatened, and of course they are famous for providing a warning before they strike. Also I have never heard of a properly trained rattlesnake attacking a person, and I know that all rattlesnakes have been through emotional trauma due to lack of parental involvement during their crucial adolescent development stages.
You bring up several points that I too have observed. One is that school administrators are typically very legal-risk adverse and will avoid any action that might under any interpretation, however broad or bizarre, violate a rule. "Don't rock the [legal] boat" is their mantra. Inconveniences, disruptions, etc. are not as big a concern for them, and it requires fear of violating another rule for them to even begin to consider the practical consequences of the way they implemented the first rule.
Second is that as you mention authentic service dogs are trained to not interact with others (people or animals) and to pretty much ignore any other distractions- their job is to focus on their owner. A "properly trained owner" would never allow their service dog to be petted by others. I also think that service animals are not fed when they are on duty, and they certainly are trained to be non-disruptive (in my town there are wonderful adoption programs for the dogs that enter into, but drop out of service dog training because they are very sweet and smart but cannot become the focused and disciplined animals required. They become pets, not service dogs).
Third- students with special needs at my university also can obtain special test taking allowances on request. But they must notify the instructor well in advance (days or weeks) to allow the time required to arrange the special accommodations. My university has, after some early confusion, worked this out pretty well.
Finally of course it is easy to look like an evil ogre in this type of situation, isn't it? It's almost like being against puppies... well, actually it is very much like being against puppies (although more grown up).
baron
Unregistered
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- Dec 8, 2006
- Messages
- 8,627
Apart from your last sentence, which is puerile, you're on the right track. Without even mentioning Mr Jackson, who would be at fault if someone brought a rattlesnake onto a plane and it attacked someone? Would it be the rattlesnake (which must of course be taken away and killed immediately for its crime) or would it be the fool who brought it onto the plane, curled it over his knee and ignored it when it rattled for ten minutes at the bloke sitting next to him?
Don't rush the answer now, it's a tricky one.
rockinkt
Master Poster
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Where I reside - British Columbia, Canada - service dogs must be certified and:
"Therapy and emotional support animals, including dogs, are not eligible for certification."
https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/justice/human-rights/guide-and-service-dog
"Therapy and emotional support animals, including dogs, are not eligible for certification."
https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/justice/human-rights/guide-and-service-dog
Elagabalus
Philosopher
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2013
- Messages
- 7,051
In all fairness, the dog in question DOES look pretty cute wearing sunglasses:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tional-support-dog-bites-Delta-passenger.html
The Marine, on the other hand ...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tional-support-dog-bites-Delta-passenger.html
The Marine, on the other hand ...