EMDR treatments.

[wasapi]

I hope this works because my cut/paste thing isn't working.

www.emdr-therapy.com/emdr.html

Is anyone familiar with this therapy? My therapist is encouraging me to use it with his guidance. It requires you to be able to relax to a meditational state, and I am afraid I am too internally anxious.


It has been proven, however, to help people with PTSD, trauma, depression, addiction, and a host of other benefits.

 

[thines]

EMDR

I doubt very much that this has been "proven". Scott Lilienfeld has said, to paraphrase that "what's new about EMDR doesn't work" and what works isn't new". Basically, EMDR is good old exposure therapy, which has been proven, with a bunch of eye twitching tossed in for variety. This latter has not been shown to be a useful addition.

 

[wasapi]

I doubt very much that this has been "proven". Scott Lilienfeld has said, to paraphrase that "what's new about EMDR doesn't work" and what works isn't new". Basically, EMDR is good old exposure therapy, which has been proven, with a bunch of eye twitching tossed in for variety. This latter has not been shown to be a useful addition.

Thanks. The whole idea seemed, to me, a bit - woo-ish.

 

[The Norseman]

I disagree.

It was brought to my attention last year sometime to help with my PTSD and searched out a qualified and trained therapist and have found it to be very scientifically-based and effective in learning to completely eradicate PTSD. Yeah, I was highly skeptical when I had heard such rave reviews, but all that did was prompt me into doing much more through research for myself.

I really recommend it.


ETA: It really shouldn't take more than a dozen or so sessions, either, so it's incredibly short and effective. Gotta make sure the therapist is certified in EMDR though so be careful of that. The tapping and so forth is mainly to break the racing thoughts and negative feedback loop that anxiety can tend to produce. One example: last year, the second-to-last panic attack started and I tried to do deep, slow breathing, yadda yadda... didn't work; half hour later my heart rate was still about the 180 range and so I called the ambulance and didn't start to calm down until I was in the back, on the way to the ED. I learned a few techniques since then but didn't have any panic attacks until like last month. I was going to bed and turned out the lights, my mind went into overdrive, I started to panic, heart rate through the roof, BP skyrocketed... the usual. Got out of bed, went to the sink, got a slightly cool washcloth with water, placed it on my face for about a minute... little less. This triggers a "diving response" in the body which completely reversed the panic attack in less than five minutes. I was back into bed and fell asleep normally. First time ever that's happened to me. The only other time where a panic attack was so short was once when I had a Valium in response. Nothing else was able to literally stop the attack cold like this one little trick did.

That's just one example of when an attack came. The other techniques I would do during the day or throughout the week to help deal with stressors as they arose instead of stuffing them or avoiding them or allowing the stressors to build and overwhelm my natural mental and emotional protections, for lack of a better term.

I am extremely against woo woo stuff especially when it comes to psychology and related issues because I know how easy it can be to fall into the traps. The human brain is ooooonnneee complicated mo-fo as we all know! I would never have done it had the science not been solid enough for me to trust in the process; and I've done a lot of woo crap when it came to therapies in the past.

Anyway, for whatever it's worth...

 

[thines]

EMDR

I'm glad it seems to have helped. But anecdotes aren't data and testimonials are just about the worst sort of evidence for any treatment. And then there's the placebo effect, which is huge in these sorts of situations.

 

[thines]

It is also true that the expose part of EMDR works, so you'd likely have had the same effect with basic exposure treatment and spared your eye muscles the workout. It's just the eye movement part that has not been shown to be effective.

 

[The Norseman]

I'm glad it seems to have helped. But anecdotes aren't data and testimonials are just about the worst sort of evidence for any treatment. And then there's the placebo effect, which is huge in these sorts of situations.

My example was simply sharing and not intended to use as evidence as such. I thought I made that clear but hopefully it is now.

Tell me, what research specifically have you read on EMDR?

ETA: Also, EMDR has been studied and developed for over two decades now with many peer-reviewed papers demonstrating efficacy beyond mere placebo, as well as papers approaching this from a neurophysiological direction in attempting to discover an explanation of how these techniques affect the brain and thought processes.

So, that's why I find your vague dismissals somewhat questionable.

 

[The Norseman]

It is also true that the expose part of EMDR works, so you'd likely have had the same effect with basic exposure treatment and spared your eye muscles the workout. It's just the eye movement part that has not been shown to be effective.

Yeah, I've never really done that part, even though it is a part of the name. I mentioned tapping because that's what I have used.

 

[thines]

EMDR

If you google "Scott Lilienfeld" & EMDR you'll find many of Scott's publications on the topic. Also the current (or one past?) edition of the "Guide to Treatments that Work" is not favorable to EMDR. I'm at home and the book is in my university library so it's not at hand. Science Based Medicine and Quackwatch have also covered EMDR.

 

[wasapi]

Yeah, I've never really done that part, even though it is a part of the name. I mentioned tapping because that's what I have used.

Norseman, I'm so glad it has helped you, I have heard several other people talk of their benefits. Belonging to a group for suicide loss survivors it is a big topic, and mostly people have commented positively about their treatments and short duration.

 

[Myriad]

In the late 90s, due to a random misdirected email, I was suddenly informed that I had been appointed chairman of the EMDR Association's Publicity Committee. I immediately did a Reply All to tell them that even though I had no idea what EMDR stood for, I had gone ahead and printed several hundred stickers reading "Yay, EMDR!" and stuck them all around my neighborhood, and that I was working on exciting new publicity initiatives for them, including: "Blimps, blimps, blimps!"

I was a little annoyed that they never emailed me back with even an "oops, sorry," so having in the meantime looked up what EMDR was, I emailed them again with details of my design for the EMDR Blimp. It was a seventy-meter-long dirigible equipped with loudspeakers and sixty-meter-long 100-kilowatt port and starboard horizontal light bars. It could fly to disaster sites and immediately deliver "mass EMDR therapy" to the traumatized victims, as well as carry in potable water and other supplies. It would be guaranteed to appear on news footage of every major disaster, making it "the greatest publicity masterstroke since Tang went into space."

They never sent back a single word, of course. A couple of years later, after 9/11, I kept thinking, what a shame, we could have used that EMDR Blimp.

 

[Loss Leader]

Is anyone familiar with this therapy? My therapist is encouraging me to use it with his guidance. It requires you to be able to relax to a meditational state, and I am afraid I am too internally anxious.


It has been proven, however, to help people with PTSD, trauma, depression, addiction, and a host of other benefits.

I'm glad this is effective for some people. Not having a clear scientific basis as to why it's effective leaves me a little cold. I would imagine that the treatment works for psychological reasons alone - and is probably comparable to guided meditation and/or breathing exercises. I doubt that anyone has put together any evidence for a neurological explanation, some rewiring of the brain or other nonsense.

Still, if you don't want to take medication, this or another form of meditation might be worth a shot.

 

[8enotto]

I have done breathing and stretching exercises in decades passed to control anxiety. I had not seen any therapist nor yoga , just spur of the moment stuff to pass stressful moments.

It works to a certain extent but not as well as just eliminating the source of the stress.

A good beer and a ten minute break work better but I wasn't allowed that at work. I did dream of it....

 

[dann]

I know nothing about EMDR, but I'm familiar with another relaxation technique, autogenic training (Wikipedia), that seems to be completely woo-free. (See Clinical application and evidence)
There are several Youtube introductions, but I don't know if they are any good.
I found out about the technique from watching German public service TV and never went beyond what they showed in the first 20 min. show. It worked for me, and over the years I've used the exercise now and then when I felt stressed.

 

[Elaedith]

I hope this works because my cut/paste thing isn't working.

www.emdr-therapy.com/emdr.html

Is anyone familiar with this therapy? My therapist is encouraging me to use it with his guidance. It requires you to be able to relax to a meditational state, and I am afraid I am too internally anxious.


It has been proven, however, to help people with PTSD, trauma, depression, addiction, and a host of other benefits.

Although the way EMDR was developed sounds woo-ish, there is evidence that it is just as effective for PTSD symptoms as trauma-focused CBT and similar therapies that involve distraction with a dual task such as tapping. In the UK EMDR is recommended by the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence for treating PTSD.

What is not clear is whether the eye movements actually play any role in reducing symptoms, whether they simply work as a form of distraction, or whether it is purely the talking component that is responsible for any effect. There are theories about the effects of eye movements on brain and memory processes and ongoing research using brain imaging but this is still a matter of debate.


I don't know of any established reason why it would require you to be in a more relaxed state to work compared to any other form of psychotherapy. There may be a particular theory that proposes this, but it is unlikely to have a well-established basis.

 

[Dancing David]

I hope this works because my cut/paste thing isn't working.

www.emdr-therapy.com/emdr.html

Is anyone familiar with this therapy? My therapist is encouraging me to use it with his guidance. It requires you to be able to relax to a meditational state, and I am afraid I am too internally anxious.


It has been proven, however, to help people with PTSD, trauma, depression, addiction, and a host of other benefits.

This was a big deal back in the mid 1990s, I knew all these clinicians I respected, some even atheist sceptics, who swore by.

But Mercutio pointed out some flaws back on the JREF, he called it 'finger wagging'.

I know people who swore by it

 

[Crawtator]

I'm a Social Security Disability attorney and, although anecdotal, I can tell you that a few of my clients that suffered from PTSD (all veterans) that used EMDR along with regular therapy saw very substantial reductions in symptoms. Not everything works for everyone, so I think that to use conventional therapy and EMDR at the same time may help some. However, what the actual difference was in the treatments may very well boil down to the EMDR therapist being a better therapist overall, as far as I could tell.

 

[The Norseman]

If you google "Scott Lilienfeld" & EMDR you'll find many of Scott's publications on the topic. Also the current (or one past?) edition of the "Guide to Treatments that Work" is not favorable to EMDR. I'm at home and the book is in my university library so it's not at hand. Science Based Medicine and Quackwatch have also covered EMDR.

Thanks for the information, I'll do my best to research Lilienfeld's findings. I'm always keen to learn more.

I'm glad this is effective for some people. Not having a clear scientific basis as to why it's effective leaves me a little cold. I would imagine that the treatment works for psychological reasons alone - and is probably comparable to guided meditation and/or breathing exercises. I doubt that anyone has put together any evidence for a neurological explanation, some rewiring of the brain or other nonsense..

Well, you'd be very wrong about that as I have available several studies which have demonstrated actual neurological changes.

Norseman, I'm so glad it has helped you, I have heard several other people talk of their benefits. Belonging to a group for suicide loss survivors it is a big topic, and mostly people have commented positively about their treatments and short duration.

Thanks! I'll PM you if you'd like with a few pdf's of studies I have for you to read if interested.

The main successes, so far as I understand, are centered around PTSD specifically, though of course depression and related issues are still being explored.

 

[Mojo]

Well, you'd be very wrong about that as I have available several studies which have demonstrated actual neurological changes.

References and/or links, please.

 

[Orphia Nay]

I disagree.

It was brought to my attention last year sometime to help with my PTSD and searched out a qualified and trained therapist and have found it to be very scientifically-based and effective in learning to completely eradicate PTSD. Yeah, I was highly skeptical when I had heard such rave reviews, but all that did was prompt me into doing much more through research for myself.

I really recommend it.


ETA: It really shouldn't take more than a dozen or so sessions, either, so it's incredibly short and effective. Gotta make sure the therapist is certified in EMDR though so be careful of that. The tapping and so forth is mainly to break the racing thoughts and negative feedback loop that anxiety can tend to produce. One example: last year, the second-to-last panic attack started and I tried to do deep, slow breathing, yadda yadda... didn't work; half hour later my heart rate was still about the 180 range and so I called the ambulance and didn't start to calm down until I was in the back, on the way to the ED. I learned a few techniques since then but didn't have any panic attacks until like last month. I was going to bed and turned out the lights, my mind went into overdrive, I started to panic, heart rate through the roof, BP skyrocketed... the usual. Got out of bed, went to the sink, got a slightly cool washcloth with water, placed it on my face for about a minute... little less. This triggers a "diving response" in the body which completely reversed the panic attack in less than five minutes. I was back into bed and fell asleep normally. First time ever that's happened to me. The only other time where a panic attack was so short was once when I had a Valium in response. Nothing else was able to literally stop the attack cold like this one little trick did.

That's just one example of when an attack came. The other techniques I would do during the day or throughout the week to help deal with stressors as they arose instead of stuffing them or avoiding them or allowing the stressors to build and overwhelm my natural mental and emotional protections, for lack of a better term.

I am extremely against woo woo stuff especially when it comes to psychology and related issues because I know how easy it can be to fall into the traps. The human brain is ooooonnneee complicated mo-fo as we all know! I would never have done it had the science not been solid enough for me to trust in the process; and I've done a lot of woo crap when it came to therapies in the past.

Anyway, for whatever it's worth...

Cooling your face with a washcloth isn't EMDR.

Glad it helped your panic attack though.