Elizabeth Warren Ancestry Thread Part 2

I'm not really upset with anyone in particular, just more frustrated that this is politics now.

No high-minded discussions of values and ideals; no reasoned debate on the merits and flaws of different strategies to accomplish goals; no working out a compromise that works for everyone. Instead we worry about inconsequential, isolated actions half a lifetime ago and everything is PR and image control.

Of course, it's probably mostly my own perception that it was ever different. I'm sure we'll find cave paintings accusing Og of being a Cro-Magnon lover, and thus unfit to be chief.

Just let me be crotchety, dammit!
 
Hellbound said:
I'm not really upset with anyone in particular, just more frustrated that this is politics now.
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It's only 2 people in the thread actually being like this, from what I can tell. :con2:

Nobody else cares.
 
kellyb said:
I think taking the genetic test and being completely transparent with the results was the smart thing to do. I would have handled it the same way she did, personally.
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Eh, she should have seen the way Obama was treated after releasing his birth certificate and known it would play out similarly.

Trump and his ilk are great spinners. Its a given that if he's asking for proof of anything he has a plan to spin any proffered proof as a negative to deepen the lie.

I think the best move would have been to go to the Native American communities first and let them trumpet the hypocrisy of Trump trying to paint her as victimizing NAs while he was using racist slurs against them and trampling their real interests.

"I'm not Native American, and I support the view of the Cherokee that Native identity is not determined by a blood test. I stand with the communities who have opposed oil pipelines that threaten their sacred spaces. I stand with the communities who don't feel represented by our current president when he slurs their culture and supports legislation that undermines their existence."
 
kellyb said:
I think taking the genetic test and being completely transparent with the results was the smart thing to do. I would have handled it the same way she did, personally.
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I don't object to the test per se. It's her defensive vibe, as opposed to owning the whole thing unabashedly.
 
Yeah, I don't really see how this matters, one way or the other. From the information available, it doesn't appear that Warren lied or benefited from it. At worse, she overstated.

But, who cares? Does this speak anything to how she'd be as a president? Does this, in any way, make her a worse choice than President Bozo who, if you care about honesty and fairness, utterly fails on all accounts?
 
Hellbound said:
I'm generalizing outside this particular microcosm.
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My take is that the GOP side can see that their opposition tends to tear themselves apart on race, so it's generally a good idea to keep Democratic politicians talking about race.
 
kellyb said:
It's only 2 people in the thread actually being like this, from what I can tell. :con2:

Nobody else cares.
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Time out. There's one more factor, and that's starry-eyed fans regurgitating misinformation and ludicrous parallels on a skeptic's board. That's what prompts my ongoing contributions.
 
d4m10n said:
My take is that the GOP side can see that their opposition tends to tear themselves apart on race, so it's generally a good idea to keep Democratic politicians talking about race.
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Eh, I'm just dis-spirited. I'm holding out hope on winning the lottery, buying a private island, building a self-sufficient home on it, then declaring it an independent nation and surrounding it with sea mines and AA guns and become a high-tech hermit.

Ignore me, just having a grumpy old man day :D
 
Hellbound said:
I'm generalizing outside this particular microcosm.
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This microcosm is the only place where I see this particular discussion happening at all, actually. I don't see it on reddit, twitter, facebook, the media (much), etc.
 
varwoche said:
I'm tempted to say a plurality* of your makeup. But that's a complicated question. I'm already on record stating that I'm 1/16 English, and would consider it a lie if I self-identified as English. Certainly more than 1/32 (her makeup as she understood it to be).

It gets complicated when we take into account how a person lives their life. I'd cut slack to a person who was born and raised on a reservation and/or is a member of a tribe. I'd also cut slack if a person is 1/32 NA, but has no idea what the other 31/32 consists of.

Hmm, that's an interesting curve. That said, one needn't be pure blood to rightfully identify as NA.

* probably not the right word in the context
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The tribes themselves do not require any native blood to be a member. So maybe your opinion is not all that important.
 
Dr. Keith said:
The tribes themselves do not require any native blood to be a member. So maybe your opinion is not all that important.
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You know the whole "Tribe" thing gets more and more pointless every time a new condition is revealed about it.

And that's point we're having a meta-conversation about whether or not Warren was basically a member of a country club.

Again if you're born in Ireland the other Irish don't get to decide if you are or are not really Irish. If you were born in America and your great, great Grandfather was born in Ireland the people living in Ireland now don't get a say in whether or not you are of "Irish Decent."
 
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JoeMorgue said:
You know the whole "Tribe" thing gets more and more pointless every time a new condition is revealed about it.

And that's point we're having a meta-conversation about whether or not Warren was basically a member of a country club.

Again if you're born in Ireland the other Irish don't get to decide if you are or are not really Irish. If you were born in America and your great, great Grandfather was born in Ireland the people living in Ireland now don't get a say in whether or not you are of "Irish Decent."
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Perhaps I'm not understanding your argument, but tribes don't decide whether or not you are of tribal descent. They instead decide on whether or not you are eligible for Tribal membership.

Ireland has an analogue: If one of your grandparents was Irish, you can emigrate to Ireland and become a citizen.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...Vaw0CCJ63nsQdaAEv1v6Jz7TU&cshid=1568668948525 3D
 
smartcooky said:
Y'all are arguing about a meaningless form that was filled out over 30 years ago - Warren was then half the age she is now.

1986 was a different time, it was considered cool by some to identify with minorities.
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You know, maybe she didn't do it because it was "cool" but because she was proud of her Native American heritage? I mean, it clearly was family lore, and it appears to have meant a lot to her. She also contributed to a recipe book, right?

My wife has a cousin married to a guy who has NA heritage. I don't know how much, and I don't care. He's proud of it, so he does it. It's not my concern.
 
varwoche said:
That said, one needn't be pure blood to rightfully identify as NA.
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And here’s where the rubber hits the road. Given that there are few, if any, full-blood NA, what percentage is acceptable? You have said, I think, 25% (if it wasn’t you apologies, it might have been BtC). This simply won’t work.

This was an issue we had to deal with in Australia. I have a good friend, a professor and award winning author with fair skin and red hair. His mother is of Irish descent and his father is identifiably aborigine, but not full-blood at all. My friend was brought up as part of an aboriginal family with all the disadvantage that comes with it. He is a proud aboriginal elder and would not be 25% full-blood without doubt, but I pity anyone who tries to tell him he’s not a proper aborigine.

There are only two tests in Australia. You have to identify as an aborigine and, far more importantly, you have to be accepted by the local aborigine community.

I think that Warren has been accepted by at least some NA groups (going on memory), and if that’s correct, all arguments about percentages are irrelevant in my view.
 
lionking said:
And here’s where the rubber hits the road. Given that there are few, if any, full-blood NA, what percentage is acceptable? You have said, I think, 25% (if it wasn’t you apologies, it might have been BtC). This simply won’t work.
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No, I didn't say that.

This was an issue we had to deal with in Australia. I have a good friend, a professor and award winning author with fair skin and red hair. His mother is of Irish descent and his father is identifiably aborigine, but not full-blood at all. My friend was brought up as part of an aboriginal family with all the disadvantage that comes with it. He is a proud aboriginal elder and would not be 25% full-blood without doubt, but I pity anyone who tries to tell him he’s not a proper aborigine.
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As I explained upthread, these are factors I would definitely take into account. If the same were true of Warren, I'd have nothing to say about it.

That said, we're both conflating tribal membership with racial makeup.

I think that Warren has been accepted by at least some NA groups (going on memory), and if that’s correct, all arguments about percentages are irrelevant in my view.
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Not sure what you refer to here. Warren isn't a member of a tribe so I don't know what you mean by acceptance.

In any case, no amount of acceptance changes what her racial makeup is.
 
It's still early, but at this point it appears to be Warren against Biden. Biden is ahead, but has plenty of time for another manifestation of foot-in-mouth disease. If it ends up being Trump vs Pocahontas, I have serious doubts as to whether she can prevail. Bernie even worse, if he wins the nomination it will be a disaster.
 
Cabbage said:
Why wouldn't it have a bearing on Warren. 1/32 can be a plurality, how could that not be relevant? And if she identifies with her 1/32 Native American, that's her prerogative; it's certainly not comparable with someone who "identifies" with her 0% black: You're the one bringing up irrelevancies, not me.
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"Can be a plurality"? Except it isn't. You're offering inapplicable scenarios.
 
varwoche said:
"Can be a plurality"? Except it isn't. You're offering inapplicable scenarios.
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Yeah, there's that old anachronistic fallacy again. Find me some evidence that she knew it was not a plurality at the time in question. Not now, you know. Back then.
 
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