Elizabeth Warren Ancestry Thread Part 2

smartcooky said:
<snip>

So the question I ask, is, has it ever been officially defined in the USA what it takes for a person to be considered "Native American". If it hasn't, then there are no ground rules, and ANY Native American ancestry would count.

<snip>
Click to expand...


The son of the above-mentioned ancestor was captured by an Abenaki tribe when he was twenty four and adopted by the tribe's chief.

I wonder if that would be enough.
 
CORed said:
If he's dead or in a coma, he will stop talking and tweeting. That's the only difference, but it would be noticeable (and a big improvement).
Click to expand...


He already has (at least) a team tweeting for him. Getting a stand-in for his speeches would be easy.

Any discrepancies would be written off as 'fake news'.

He could have gone into a coma last year. How would we be sure?

:p
 
smartcooky said:
Yet we have people in this country who claim Maori tribal ancestral heritage with as little as 1/32nd. Keeping it simple, this means that if such a person had only ONE full Maori ancestor five generations back (A great, great, great grandparent), they would be claiming to be Maori. Is this dishonest? No, it isn't because it has been officially defined.
Click to expand...
I've always understood that I'm 1/16 English and I'm fairly sure this is true. On top of which, I have a decidedly English surname. I'm 3/4 Jewish. If I self-identified as English I'd be lying. Tip tip tally ho?

We're not talking long form vaguery, as if Warren was opining on her background. Her self-identification was unary and specific.

I don't know what it means to be an official Maori. I do know, however, that a person who is 1/32 ethnic Maori (or has a reason to think so) who claims their race is Maori, period, is not being truthful.
 
Last edited:
varwoche said:
I do know, however, that a person who is 1/32 ethnic Maori (or has a reason to think so) who claims their race is Maori, period, is not being truthful.
Click to expand...
There are scenarios in which I would agree that and scenarios in which I would not. See also, there is no such thing as biological race. We continue to collect data on it, forcing people to indicate categories for continuous data and for millions of people there is nuance to their answer. (See also, though irrelevant to the Cherokee, Warren's genetic analysis revealed her to have had one or more Native American ancestors several generations back which is consistent with her family lore.)

I do know, however, that a person who has apologized for a foolish transgression and received forgiveness from the people hurt by that transgression does not need to be continually punished for it by folks on the sidelines who were unaffected by the transgression.
 
The Shrike said:
There are scenarios in which I would agree that and scenarios in which I would not. See also, there is no such thing as biological race. We continue to collect data on it, forcing people to indicate categories for continuous data and for millions of people there is nuance to their answer. (See also, though irrelevant to the Cherokee, Warren's genetic analysis revealed her to have had one or more Native American ancestors several generations back which is consistent with her family lore.)

I do know, however, that a person who has apologized for a foolish transgression and received forgiveness from the people hurt by that transgression does not need to be continually punished for it by folks on the sidelines who were unaffected by the transgression.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Get over it, people. Meanwhile.....Trump's father was still not born in Germany. And his family lore never said so.
 
The Shrike said:
I do know, however, that a person who has apologized for a foolish transgression and received forgiveness from the people hurt by that transgression does not need to be continually punished for it by folks on the sidelines who were unaffected by the transgression.
Click to expand...

I disagree
 
The Shrike said:
...I do know, however, that a person who has apologized for a foolish transgression and received forgiveness from the people hurt by that transgression does not need to be continually punished for it by folks on the sidelines who were unaffected by the transgression.
Click to expand...
It's telling that setting the record straight on a simple factual matter -- a fact that some fans have proven unable to grasp -- is something you consider undue "punishment" for Warren. What a sorry joke.
 
Last edited:
Stacyhs said:
Agreed. Get over it, people. Meanwhile.....Trump's father was still not born in Germany. And his family lore never said so.
Click to expand...
I tell you what. When posters stop misrepresenting what happened, I'll get over it.

Sheesh.
 
Last edited:
varwoche said:
It's telling that setting the record straight on a simple factual matter -- a fact that some fans have proven unable to grasp -- is something you consider undue "punishment" for Warren.
Click to expand...
That's not what he said.
varwoche said:
I tell you what. When posters stop misrepresenting what happened, I'll get over it.
Click to expand...
Can you be specific about someone misreprepreseting what she did here?
 
varwoche said:
It's telling that setting the record straight on a simple factual matter -- a fact that some fans have proven unable to grasp -- is something you consider undue "punishment" for Warren. What a sorry joke.
Click to expand...
Warren already set the record straight. She said she was Native; she IS Native. She acknowledged that she was wrong to have insinuated that she was more Tribally connected than she is (which is essentially zero) and has apologized to the Cherokee for that. The Cherokee have accepted her apology.

Whatever record-straightening you think you're doing is unnecessary fantasy.
 
The Shrike said:
Warren already set the record straight. She said she was Native; she IS Native. She acknowledged that she was wrong to have insinuated that she was more Tribally connected than she is (which is essentially zero) and has apologized to the Cherokee for that. The Cherokee have accepted her apology.

Whatever record-straightening you think you're doing is unnecessary fantasy.
Click to expand...

She is not native.
 
It strikes me that the facts are relatively clear and generally accepted by all the posters in this thread. The only remaining question is how one views those facts in assessing Warren's character and appropriateness for office. The facts don't bother me much, nor apparently most of the other posters here. I like her. But these same facts do bother a few of the members here. Okay, but it seems to me that no amount of further posting will likely change these subjective views. Yet the thread will continue...
 
Stacyhs said:
As both of my maternal great grandparents were German citizens, were born in Germany, spoke German and emigrated from Germany, my family always thought they were...well...German. Nuh uh. Turns out they were both of Danish ancestry as my genealogical research and DNA revealed.

Husband's family claimed direct descent from William Penn. Even said so in newspaper clippings from old obituaries. Husband's family is Mormon so they have A LOT of genealogy info. Turns out they couldn't possibly be Penn's descendants as his descendants have been documented very well and none of my husband's ancestors is among them. Turns out the family story got skewed: they descend from a sister of the woman who married Penn. But does that mean my husband's family were lying? Nope. It's what they believe and that misinformation is still being passed down in the family lore.
Click to expand...

He'd be related via Penn and his wife being a sister of your husband's ancestor, of the Great Aunt variety.

For example in the days when Finland (as part of Sweden) was Catholic none of the priests and bishops were supposed to marry procreate, yet it is known many of the early bishops did have children, maybe claimed it was their brother's/sister's to get around the Pope. Anyway, the earliest Bishop of Åbo (Turku), Konrad Bitz, had a grandmother whose daughter (his mother's sister) is my direct ancestor.

Conrad Henricus Bids is your first cousin 14 times removed.
Click to expand...

Likewise another famous Bishop, Magnus Tawast likewise is an avuncular direct ascendent.
Bishop Magnus Olofsson Tawast is your 16th great uncle.
Click to expand...
The point, uncles and aunts are pretty close relatives as they are the siblings of one's parents: pretty much the same genes, so your husband is not incorrect, if Penn and his wife had offspring, to make the wife's sister's children first cousins.
 
Last edited:
The Shrike said:
There are scenarios in which I would agree that and scenarios in which I would not. See also, there is no such thing as biological race. We continue to collect data on it, forcing people to indicate categories for continuous data and for millions of people there is nuance to their answer. (See also, though irrelevant to the Cherokee, Warren's genetic analysis revealed her to have had one or more Native American ancestors several generations back which is consistent with her family lore.)

I do know, however, that a person who has apologized for a foolish transgression and received forgiveness from the people hurt by that transgression does not need to be continually punished for it by folks on the sidelines who were unaffected by the transgression.
Click to expand...

Seriously though, Warren was cheating. Not much different from that woman recently jailed for 14 days for changing her daughter's entrance exam marks to get her into an Ivy League college.
 
Vixen said:
Seriously though, Warren was cheating.
Click to expand...
She messed up, no question. I've been saying so for pages and pages. This is too subtle for some of the great critical thinkers here, evidently.

Vixen said:
Not much different from that woman recently jailed for 14 days for changing her daughter's entrance exam marks to get her into an Ivy League college.
Click to expand...
Very much different. Warren is indeed Native, consistent with her family lore and confirmed via genetic analysis. These are material facts of the issue that are for some reason unrecognized by some participants in this discussion. Unless there is some investigation that reveals Warren's genetic sample was submitted by someone else in an effort to confirm her claims of Native ancestry, there's no "cheating."

The other place where the analogy fails is in the purpose and the result. Warren's big screw-up was in allowing her family lore and ultimately a DNA test to dictate her ethnic identity. This is wrong, unequivocally. She was (rightfully) ripped a new one for it by the Cherokee but has apologized and worked to make amends and the Cherokee have accepted her apology.

At no point, however, have her (legitimate) claims of Native ancestry helped to advance her career. This fact was testified to by officials at Harvard and it played no role in her acceptance to the Texas Bar. If anything, her foolish self-identification as Native for a good chunk of her career has cost her far more than it ever could have helped her.
 
The Shrike said:
She messed up, no question. I've been saying so for pages and pages. This is too subtle for some of the great critical thinkers here, evidently.


Very much different. Warren is indeed Native, consistent with her family lore and confirmed via genetic analysis. These are material facts of the issue that are for some reason unrecognized by some participants in this discussion. Unless there is some investigation that reveals Warren's genetic sample was submitted by someone else in an effort to confirm her claims of Native ancestry, there's no "cheating."

The other place where the analogy fails is in the purpose and the result. Warren's big screw-up was in allowing her family lore and ultimately a DNA test to dictate her ethnic identity. This is wrong, unequivocally. She was (rightfully) ripped a new one for it by the Cherokee but has apologized and worked to make amends and the Cherokee have accepted her apology.

At no point, however, have her (legitimate) claims of Native ancestry helped to advance her career. This fact was testified to by officials at Harvard and it played no role in her acceptance to the Texas Bar. If anything, her foolish self-identification as Native for a good chunk of her career has cost her far more than it ever could have helped her.
Click to expand...

Not consistent with family lore. Her lore included several claims that are not consistent with the dna test. High cheekbones?
 
Giordano said:
It strikes me that the facts are relatively clear and generally accepted by all the posters in this thread. The only remaining question is how one views those facts in assessing Warren's character and appropriateness for office. The facts don't bother me much, nor apparently most of the other posters here. I like her. But these same facts do bother a few of the members here. Okay, but it seems to me that no amount of further posting will likely change these subjective views. Yet the thread will continue...
Click to expand...

It seems to be the only objection people can raise to a Warren presidency. Considering every single other candidate has baggage far worse this business is more of a recommendation to vote for Warren than it is argument for voting against her!
 
TragicMonkey said:
It seems to be the only objection people can raise to a Warren presidency. Considering every single other candidate has baggage far worse this business is more of a recommendation to vote for Warren than it is argument for voting against her!
Click to expand...

Or maybe don't vote.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom