Elephant "graveyards"

[catbasket]

Yes, they may recognize individuals they once knew, but maybe they also recognize any elephant remains as being elephantine, because it smells like an elephant. Not any particular individual, perhaps. Just elephant-y.

Not forgetting that ivory feels elephant-y

Interesting point by shadron. A quick google seems to show that elephants have a pretty good sense of smell, e.g. "[the African elephants'] sense of smell is thought to be superior to any other land animal".

RecoveringYuppy - you've given me something to think about ... but they seem to do this naturally, in the wild ... and I certainly wouldn't recognise the bones of Granpappy Snow unless they were labeled ...

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

Absolutely. Most people have seen skulls at least in any case.

Skulls of their own relatives? I would think few people would have that experience. Though I expect elephants have that experience routinely.

Would you get the participants consent first? That's an important difference between human participation and elephant.

While situations appear to suggest they are not stressed by such remains.

Hard to say though, since we can't talk to them or read their minds.

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

In case slingblade is really offended, I'd point out that I said I had reservations, not that I thought this was tantamount to torture.

RecoveringYuppy - you've given me something to think about ... but they seem to do this naturally, in the wild

Yes and I certainly wouldn't have any objections to watching what they choose to do for themselves. No ethical issues there.

... and I certainly wouldn't recognise the bones of Granpappy Snow unless they were labeled ...

We don't know how or if they actually recognize individual remains. Experimenting with the remains of relatives is most troublesome to me. If they've got anything resembling the sentamentaliy we attach to remains that could be very stressful. If, for example, we removed the smell from a set of remains to test if smell is how they recognize remains, we could be destroying something very important to an elephant.

 

[Modified]

Beyond that is the practical problem of rendering something"odorless"...to whom? Smell is essentially an airborne molecular chemical recognition facility. We have no way of knowing what elephants can smell (or at least, I doubt any extensive research is extant).

You're overthinking this. Just spray some Febreze on them and that ought to do it.

 

[CapelDodger]

I've explained, Larsen, that elephants often try to rouse a downed, living elephant. They may also do this with one recently dead, still trying to get the dead animal to its feet. This is likely due to their very social interactions. A downed elephant can't be part of the herd anymore, as the herd is constantly moving. A non-moving elephant is an anomaly in elephant society.

All that aside, and explicable, I want to know how much scent has to do with it.

I wonder how much memory and learning has to do with it. Elephant herds do have to keep moving, but as I understand it they exploit habitual territores in different seasons, and migrate by habitual routes. The likelihood is that when they come across elephant bones they'll remember the occasion of that elephant's death and have an emotional response.

 

[Cavemonster]

I'm not sure how proving that elephants recognize the bones by scent would change the interpretation of the action.

Every thing we interact with, we recognize it as what it is though our senses. From what I know, no one is claiming that the elephants magically know that the bones are theirs.

If I get you right, your premise is that they may not recognize the bones as dead, and are continuing to treat them as live elephants. Whether or not they recognize the bones as different from live ailing elephants is what an experiment should cover.

I don't see how masking the scent would be any different from blindfolding, if it were shown that they recognized the bones by scent alone, so what?

 

[catbasket]

We don't know how or if they actually recognize individual remains.

Agreed.

Experimenting with the remains of relatives is most troublesome to me.

I respect, and to a certain extent understand, your point of view.

If they've got anything resembling the sentamentaliy we attach to remains that could be very stressful.

To me that is one mighty big "if". Also, I'm trying to work out just how much sentimentality I personally attach to remains ... it seems to be extremely little.

If, for example, we removed the smell from a set of remains to test if smell is how they recognize remains, we could be destroying something very important to an elephant.

We could be, if smell is how elephants recognise remains and remains are indeed important to them. However from the study linked it appears that smell may well not be how they identify remains (Teepol washes). Maybe it's the feel of the ivory? But how then do we explain their interest in elephant remains where no ivory is present? [woo alert] Maybe elephants have some unknown sense or method for recognising remains? Would discovering that be worth any upset to the elephants involved in the tests? I just don't know.

One thing I do know is that it was you who made me think about this (ethical reservations) ... something I hadn't considered previously. So - "Thank you, RY, for making me think".

 

[geni]

Skulls of their own relatives? I would think few people would have that experience. Though I expect elephants have that experience routinely.

Realisticaly you are not going to be able to tell the difference between the skull of a relative and any other.

Would you get the participants consent first? That's an important difference between human participation and elephant.

Current practice seems to be that you do not require consent to show someone a skull.

Hard to say though, since we can't talk to them or read their minds.

We have a reasonable idea of what the stress characteristics are in an elephant.

 

[technoextreme]

Chimps may still believe - even wish - that their partner isn't really dead. We see this with other animals that linger a while around a dead offspring (e.g., The March of the Penguins).

Errrr... I doubt it's wishing. My family has noticed the same odd behavior with squirrels. And by odd we actually witnessed a mother squirrel drag a dead baby up tree.

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

To me that is one mighty big "if". Also, I'm trying to work out just how much sentimentality I personally attach to remains ... it seems to be extremely little.

Yes, it's definitely a big if.

I attach little sentimentality to remains also, but still I think I'd disturbed to see a relatives skull.

Realisticaly you are not going to be able to tell the difference between the skull of a relative and any other.

No, but if I knew it was a relative skull (such as being told), I'd be disturbed.

Current practice seems to be that you do not require consent to show someone a skull.

What kind of current practice are you referring to? You'd have to get consent to show someone a skull of a recently dead relative. There are laws regarding what you can do to dead bodies. We may be on a forum where superstitions about dead bodies are in short supply, but there are plenty of people who have opinions about what should and should not happen to dead bodies.

We tend to think of animals as having childlike minds. Not sure if there is anything at all accurate about that conception but I'm sure most people wouldn't be cavalier about showing kids dead bodies.

We have a reasonable idea of what the stress characteristics are in an elephant.

If we don't even know if elephants have a sense of loss, how could we know when we've caused them extra grief?

 

[six7s]

Just a thought... rather than simply olfactory recognition, might not optical recognition play a part... I mean... what the hell else, besides an elephant, has bones that size and shape to leave decomposing in the jungles of India or the savannas of Africa?





rhino


hippo

 

[slingblade]

What caught my attention and prompted my thoughts was the statement that they don't do this with any other animal bones. On the screen at that moment were several elephants touching and interacting with elephant bones. It made me wonder, is it because other bones don't smell like them, perhaps? Just an idle thought, and one that I wondered about testing. I'm sure sight comes into it, in large part, of course.

Heh, I was jist a thinkin. Us rednecks dew that wunst in a while.

 

[geni]

What kind of current practice are you referring to? You'd have to get consent to show someone a skull of a recently dead relative. There are laws regarding what you can do to dead bodies. We may be on a forum where superstitions about dead bodies are in short supply, but there are plenty of people who have opinions about what should and should not happen to dead bodies.

Depends on how recently dead. Bodies get donated to medical science and the like and bodies turning up as a collection of bones is not unknown.

If we don't even know if elephants have a sense of loss, how could we know when we've caused them extra grief?

There are a number of stress indicators in elephants. One is where they try to kill you. Another is rocking behavior.

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

There are a number of stress indicators in elephants. One is where they try to kill you. Another is rocking behavior.

Somehow I think that means we've still got a long way to go before we know we've fully understood what goes on in an elephants head.

 

[CrikeyBobs]

Errrr... I doubt it's wishing. My family has noticed the same odd behavior with squirrels. And by odd we actually witnessed a mother squirrel drag a dead baby up tree.

My interpretation of that behaviour would be that removing the body reduces the risk that predators are attracted to the area and so become a threat to the squirrel's other young.

 

[quarky]

What Six7's said.

That, and elephants have a very large brain; live a long social life; and we don't know squat about what goes on in non-human brains.

 

[AWPrime]

Maybe elephants have some unknown sense or method for recognising remains? Would discovering that be worth any upset to the elephants involved in the tests? I just don't know.

I think that its likely location. Elephants have an excellent internal map, if they know where a member died and they find elephant bones there its easy to reason who those bones belonged to.

 

[CapelDodger]

What Six7's said.

That, and elephants have a very large brain; live a long social life; and we don't know squat about what goes on in non-human brains.

I'm two-parts good with that, but not good with the last part.

We know a lot about what goes on in social mammals, and we share that distinction with elephants. We share the same kind of nomadic behaviour with elephants - efficient exploitation of seasonal territories, and migration between them by established routes. This means that the dead we come across are mostly the remembered dead.

Humans tend to bury and raise monuments to the dead. Elephants don't have to because they have some bones way too big to drag away. Or they were before humans started building houses out of them.