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Electrical Noise Causing Physiological Stress?

Except that there doesn't seem to be very good information either way.

I found the leukemia thing interesting... corroboration?

There are ergonomic considerations with use of electronics (eg. refresh rates on CRTs, etc.) Also, EM radiation in the form of high-energy X-Rays can be very harmful. There doesn't seem to be enough information to completely rule out any effect from this.

However, that's justification for further study, not for running out and buying a basket full of copper bracelets to readjust your magnetic field :boxedin: .
 
Dirty power is a real concern in the power industry, which is why power analyzers exist:

http://www.fluke.com/products/view/home.asp?SID=12&AGID=3&PID=5177

The article makes no mention as to whether or not a power anlyzer was used to see if the power was dirty in the first place. There were a few studies done but no one seems to have bothered to measure the line noise before and after the tests. Without these measurements, these experiments are only good for demonstrating the placebo effect.

The symptoms given are the usual non-specific laundry list of complaints. Any time you see 'memory loss', your B.S. detector should go off. There are lots of people who work with huge amounts of EMI on a regular basis. There should be an epidemic of problems within the power industry. Those people work near lines that carry many hundreds or even thousands of volts. Are there any studies that show people who work around high voltages have a lot of health problems? I should mention that the CRT in your computer or TV set is running at 1000 volts or so...

The power conditioner reduces noise (electromagnetic interferance, or EMI) that is called conducted EMI and is different from radiated EMI that you get from cell phones, wireless modems, etc. The power conditioners do nothing about radiated EMI so it is useless to mention them in the article. Nothing can stop radiated EMI except for a properly grounded tinfoil hat.

The conditioners also do nothing about conducted EMI that is generated within equipment that is connected to the output of the conditioner. This also means that the fluorescent lights that guy was using did not stop radiating EMI just because he was running them from a clean power supply. This means the school still could have had dirty power even when running from the conditioner. The only way to guarantee clean power is to plug each piece of equipment into its own power conditioner outlet.

Reading the article, I thought this was strange:

[This deterioration in power quality has been going on for years and would have likely escaped public notice, except that when home computers became popular in the 1990s they would frequently crash or malfunction because of it.]

I've never heard of that one before. In fact, computer power supplies are very resistant to line noise. They use a switching power supply which can operate with a large variation of line voltage. The line voltage should be 120V in the U.S., but your computer should run fine with between 90V and 130V. The switching supply itself generates noise so it uses filters on the input to keep the noise from getting back into the house wiring. The output of the supply is also well-filtered to keep switching noise out of the computer's DC power. I have never heard of computers crashing because of bad power, but I recall that the Apple IIe computers would start to crash if the room temperature got too high. CPUs didn't have fans until late in the 90's, so maybe that's why computers were crashing. In any case, running Windows back then was a good way to make sure your computer would crash.

I looked for Kevin Byrne's website but I can't find it.
 
The conditioners also do nothing about conducted EMI that is generated within equipment that is connected to the output of the conditioner. This also means that the fluorescent lights that guy was using did not stop radiating EMI just because he was running them from a clean power supply.

See, and that's the part that I thought was strange. I wasn't sure if the article was simply getting at power in the wall with spikes, reactive inductances, etc. or the 'fields' from all of the equipment we have around us. I was looking at it from an ergonomic perspective (eyestrain from CRT, that annoying hum, etc.).

If you want to study the effects of 'dirty' power, go to any country/region that's had it for some time and find if any health problems can be correlated there. Filter out considerations such as intermittent power being poor for refrigerating antibiotics, food, etc. and see if anything's left.
 
Perhaps even more simplistic lab experiments would be in order. Expose mice etc to strong EM (or other) fields and observe the effects.
 
Perhaps even more simplistic lab experiments would be in order. Expose mice etc to strong EM (or other) fields and observe the effects.

LOL...

Parallel plate capacitor, separation 10 cm, with a rat/air dielectric. At what point does the capacitor start to smoke? Are there any ill effects on the rat before then?

:jaw-dropp
 
Dirty power is a real concern in the power industry, which is why power analyzers exist:

http://www.fluke.com/products/view/home.asp?SID=12&AGID=3&PID=5177

The article makes no mention as to whether or not a power anlyzer was used to see if the power was dirty in the first place. There were a few studies done but no one seems to have bothered to measure the line noise before and after the tests. Without these measurements, these experiments are only good for demonstrating the placebo effect.

The symptoms given are the usual non-specific laundry list of complaints. Any time you see 'memory loss', your B.S. detector should go off. There are lots of people who work with huge amounts of EMI on a regular basis. There should be an epidemic of problems within the power industry. Those people work near lines that carry many hundreds or even thousands of volts. Are there any studies that show people who work around high voltages have a lot of health problems? I should mention that the CRT in your computer or TV set is running at 1000 volts or so...

The power conditioner reduces noise (electromagnetic interferance, or EMI) that is called conducted EMI and is different from radiated EMI that you get from cell phones, wireless modems, etc. The power conditioners do nothing about radiated EMI so it is useless to mention them in the article. Nothing can stop radiated EMI except for a properly grounded tinfoil hat.

The conditioners also do nothing about conducted EMI that is generated within equipment that is connected to the output of the conditioner. This also means that the fluorescent lights that guy was using did not stop radiating EMI just because he was running them from a clean power supply. This means the school still could have had dirty power even when running from the conditioner. The only way to guarantee clean power is to plug each piece of equipment into its own power conditioner outlet.

Reading the article, I thought this was strange:

[This deterioration in power quality has been going on for years and would have likely escaped public notice, except that when home computers became popular in the 1990s they would frequently crash or malfunction because of it.]

I've never heard of that one before. In fact, computer power supplies are very resistant to line noise. They use a switching power supply which can operate with a large variation of line voltage. The line voltage should be 120V in the U.S., but your computer should run fine with between 90V and 130V. The switching supply itself generates noise so it uses filters on the input to keep the noise from getting back into the house wiring. The output of the supply is also well-filtered to keep switching noise out of the computer's DC power. I have never heard of computers crashing because of bad power, but I recall that the Apple IIe computers would start to crash if the room temperature got too high. CPUs didn't have fans until late in the 90's, so maybe that's why computers were crashing. In any case, running Windows back then was a good way to make sure your computer would crash.

I looked for Kevin Byrne's website but I can't find it.

The CRT on your computer (and yout TV set as well) run quite above 20000 volts and tens af kilohertz

Just a nickpit :)
 
The effects should then be greater anywhere in the vicinity of electric arc furnaces: these are well known for causing 'flicker' on power lines. However, since such plants are frequently in areas of higher than average pollution, it may be difficult trying to separate out any effect.
 
FYI, the FCC (in the US), CISPR and other organizations regulate emissions (and immunity in the case of CISPR) that electrical devices can give off.

I wasn't able to read the article as I don't feel like paying for it, but from your description, I assume that the conditioners were not your standard powerline filters (which will have an effect on Radiated Emissions, BTW), but rather some form of public-bilking electronics?

[nitpick]X-rays are harmful because they're ionizing radiation, not because they're radiation[/nitpick]
 
I have seen nothing in amateur radio that shows any problems with RF, and I know many amateur into their 80's and 90's and their cancer problems are few and far between and those are lung cancer, they smoked.

Paul

:) :) :)
 
[nitpick]X-rays are harmful because they're ionizing radiation, not because they're radiation[/nitpick]

Over 1 year later!! :eek:

I'm assuming this nitpick was directed at me...

umm...

perhaps I wasn't making myself clear. I was trying to indicate that scientists and engineers cannot make the blanket claim that "electromagnetic radiation" is harmless (nor would any really try). I was trying to imagine sources of harm.

Intense gamma-ray, x-ray, microwave and well... you name it... sources can cause great harm (fun trivia question: what is the wavelength difference between gamma and x-rays? Hint: they're differentiated by process, not wavelength).

So, given the caveat that EM radiation is not universally harmless, I still feel that there's a lot of bunk in this area.
 
I have seen nothing in amateur radio that shows any problems with RF, and I know many amateur into their 80's and 90's and their cancer problems are few and far between and those are lung cancer, they smoked.

Paul

:) :) :)

Well, not quite. About 20 years ago a chap in Washington State (I think he may have been the State Medical Examiner, not sure) did a study in which he claimed to have found excess cancer deaths among amateur radio operators as compare to the general population. His conclusion was that exposure to RF increased risks of cancer. Initially it cause a huge flap among the ham population. Then folks took a closer look at his study. Anyone with an amateur radio "ham" license was factored into his study, but that included people who hadn't operated a transmitter in years, people who ran 1.5KW transmitters several hours a day, people who used only a 10 watt transmitter for half an hour a month, and so on. And I don't believe he looked at lifestyles like diet, smoking, and exposure to carcinogens in the workplace. Well, you can see the problem- A very flawed study.

There have been many, many peer reviewed scientific studies attempting to link both power line and RF (radiofrequency) exposure to cancer, and only a very few have ever shown a linkage. And efforts to replicate results of those studies have not shown linkage. If there's any cancer risk, so far it's been much too small to identify.
 
Over 1 year later!! :eek:
Heh...well, I'm not the thread ressurecter....

I'm assuming this nitpick was directed at me...

umm...

perhaps I wasn't making myself clear. I was trying to indicate that scientists and engineers cannot make the blanket claim that "electromagnetic radiation" is harmless (nor would any really try). I was trying to imagine sources of harm.

Intense gamma-ray, x-ray, microwave and well... you name it... sources can cause great harm (fun trivia question: what is the wavelength difference between gamma and x-rays? Hint: they're differentiated by process, not wavelength).

So, given the caveat that EM radiation is not universally harmless, I still feel that there's a lot of bunk in this area.

It wasn't really directed at anyone. It was more of a general irritation that I have to put up with on a fairly regular basis. You're absolutely correct, EM can be dangerous. You can get some REALLY nasty burns from non-ionizing radiation, which is why most of my testing, espcially the susceptibility/immunity, is done in a shield room. Most people trigger on the word "radiation" and immeadately jump to "OOOOOOOOOOO EVIL NASTY RADIATION!!!!!!!" with out ever finding out about the physics.
 
kmortis, what frequencies do you work with, before I ask more questions.

Paul

:) :) :)
 

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