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Electric Vehicles

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The linked item on the Chinese EV Mini started a conversation about "substandard" cars that don't meet safety regs and pretend to be bikes to get around requirements, but which safety regs does it not meet?
 
Jack by the hedge said:
The linked item on the Chinese EV Mini started a conversation about "substandard" cars that don't meet safety regs and pretend to be bikes to get around requirements, but which safety regs does it not meet?
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It is unlikely that these cars meet current US standards for occupant protection during a crash.
 
Of course at least some of the Chinese vehicles might meet US standards, but if they are not tested we cannot know. There are some Chinese standards, but I don't know how they compare, and they don't cover all that the US standards do.

It's a pretty complicated and extensive list, including things like door locks, glass, side impact, head restraints, and whatnot in addition to the basic issue of passenger compartment integrity. Of course we're free to think they're excessive and unnecessary, but not to put new cars on the road if they don't meet them.

Of course we're in a sort of cleft stick here. Even if you believe the standards should not be necessary, once they exist, people trust that they are met, and behave accordingly. Meeting them becomes necessary whether or not they should have been adopted in the first place.
 
Building a car to American/European safety standards cost money. If they cars aren't being sold in those areas, you can safely assume they don't meet those standards.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Building a car to American/European safety standards cost money. If they cars aren't being sold in those areas, you can safely assume they don't meet those standards.
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I presume China has safety standards too and isn't a complete anarchy. They do intend to start making and selling this model in Europe.
 
bruto said:
Of course at least some of the Chinese vehicles might meet US standards, but if they are not tested we cannot know. There are some Chinese standards, but I don't know how they compare, and they don't cover all that the US standards do.

It's a pretty complicated and extensive list, including things like door locks, glass, side impact, head restraints, and whatnot in addition to the basic issue of passenger compartment integrity. Of course we're free to think they're excessive and unnecessary, but not to put new cars on the road if they don't meet them.

Of course we're in a sort of cleft stick here. Even if you believe the standards should not be necessary, once they exist, people trust that they are met, and behave accordingly. Meeting them becomes necessary whether or not they should have been adopted in the first place.
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Of course lots of deadly old cars had great passenger compartment integrity, they just did minor things like spear the driver on the steering wheel. Crumple zones to reduce deceleration are important parts of safety features as well
 
ponderingturtle said:
Here are the laws for the US, knock yourself out.

https://www.nhtsa.gov/laws-regulations/fmvss
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Thanks. Unfortunately I don't make cars to test, and I don't have one of those Chinese ones to compare with the regulations.

I think my point was really that "If they cars aren't being sold in those areas, you can safely assume they don't meet those standards" isn't necessarily true. Rather, they haven't been tested to see if they meet those standards.

Now that might be because the manufacturer knows they'll fail, but it could also be because it's a long and expensive process and the manufacturer isn't yet ready to launch sales, servicing and support in that territory, so it's not worth the hassle yet.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
Thanks. Unfortunately I don't make cars to test, and I don't have one of those Chinese ones to compare with the regulations.

I think my point was really that "If they cars aren't being sold in those areas, you can safely assume they don't meet those standards" isn't necessarily true. Rather, they haven't been tested to see if they meet those standards.

Now that might be because the manufacturer knows they'll fail, but it could also be because it's a long and expensive process and the manufacturer isn't yet ready to launch sales, servicing and support in that territory, so it's not worth the hassle yet.
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If they are not designed to meet those standards they wont. Reinforcements, doors that don't pop open in t bone collisions and so on all cost money and in most of those nations price and fuel efficiency wins out over safety.

Here is an article from 2015 on this issue.

https://www.automotiveworld.com/articles/emerging-markets-taking-vehicle-safety-seriously-least-paper/

Safety costs money in materials, design and so forth. Most of those countries have pressure for fuel efficiency and low cost not safety in terms of their market and the governments have difficulty fighting public opinion on such issues.

So especially when looking at the lowest level cars in these markets no they would not pass American safety standards. All kinds of things get added to these regularly, not all features becoming standard is because of the market, a fair amount is from the regulators.
 
I don't expect it'll be a big surprise but China does indeed have safety standards for new cars: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-NCAP

Sorry it's not a very information-packed wiki page but <shrug> C-NCAP does at least seem to be a thing.

Now it might very well be that the new car with the worst safety rating in the world is one being made in China, I don't know, but that doesn't automatically mean that all Chinese-made cars are death traps which can't meet Western standards. Assuming their products are all junk sounds like the sort of hubris of 50 years ago that dismissed Japanese cars and motorbikes as a joke right before they ate the West's lunch.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
I don't expect it'll be a big surprise but China does indeed have safety standards for new cars: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-NCAP

Sorry it's not a very information-packed wiki page but <shrug> C-NCAP does at least seem to be a thing.

Now it might very well be that the new car with the worst safety rating in the world is one being made in China, I don't know, but that doesn't automatically mean that all Chinese-made cars are death traps which can't meet Western standards. Assuming their products are all junk sounds like the sort of hubris of 50 years ago that dismissed Japanese cars and motorbikes as a joke right before they ate the West's lunch.
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And no one is saying that, look at the article I posted from 6 years ago, all countries have safety standards, but what exactly they require or do not varies. The article makes a point about Korea tightening up their safety standards to be on par with europe while China, india and brazil lag further behind.

But it means that you can not just take the price of the car in china and say that it could be sold for that in the US or Europe as they have stricter safety standards and increasing requirements for things like back up cameras, or back up alarms so you don't hit things.

These things are not just options that have become standard a lot of them are legally required by regulation.

Then there is the whole side issue of what the market will accept in terms of performance, that seems to be a lot more exacting in the US over china for example.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
I don't expect it'll be a big surprise but China does indeed have safety standards for new cars: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-NCAP

Sorry it's not a very information-packed wiki page but <shrug> C-NCAP does at least seem to be a thing.

Now it might very well be that the new car with the worst safety rating in the world is one being made in China, I don't know, but that doesn't automatically mean that all Chinese-made cars are death traps which can't meet Western standards. Assuming their products are all junk sounds like the sort of hubris of 50 years ago that dismissed Japanese cars and motorbikes as a joke right before they ate the West's lunch.
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I don't think anyone is suggesting they're all junk. Only that American safety standards are generally tougher than those elsewhere, and that meeting them is an expensive chore that some manufacturers will likely skip. I notice from the comparison that while there are standards in China for many aspects of collision, none seem to exist for some, such as headrests and glass. While some of those issues are likely easy to fix, or may just need testing, some might require small but expensive retooling and redesign. US standards cover a lot of little stuff - handles and visors and knobs and mirrors, that may or may not be covered elsewhere.

I still think the main issue with those very little cars is that they won't readily meet US collision standards unless they're registered under some special rule, or as motorcycles, and that this could cause a number of problems for people who expect that because they look like cars they will behave like them.

With regard to passenger compartment integrity, oddly enough, I think that big old cars one might have predicted to do well in this do not. I recall seeing, I think it was a 1959 Chevy, big, lots of steel, etc., subjected to a crash test. It did very badly, the passenger compartment deformed enough to pretty much guarantee maiming or death. The engineering of safety is pretty sophisticated.
 
bruto said:
With regard to passenger compartment integrity, oddly enough, I think that big old cars one might have predicted to do well in this do not. I recall seeing, I think it was a 1959 Chevy, big, lots of steel, etc., subjected to a crash test. It did very badly, the passenger compartment deformed enough to pretty much guarantee maiming or death. The engineering of safety is pretty sophisticated.
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I am sure that you are recalling this test:



The difference is really dramatic.

Years ago I had a friend who was in an accident. Afterwards he complained because the air bag hurt his arm. But, I saw a photo of his wrecked car. It was only two-thirds of its original length. I was surprised that his injuries were so mild.
 
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ponderingturtle said:
And no one is saying that, look at the article I posted from 6 years ago, all countries have safety standards, but what exactly they require or do not varies. The article makes a point about Korea tightening up their safety standards to be on par with europe while China, india and brazil lag further behind.

But it means that you can not just take the price of the car in china and say that it could be sold for that in the US or Europe as they have stricter safety standards and increasing requirements for things like back up cameras, or back up alarms so you don't hit things.

These things are not just options that have become standard a lot of them are legally required by regulation.

Then there is the whole side issue of what the market will accept in terms of performance, that seems to be a lot more exacting in the US over china for example.
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One other thing, is that most cars sold in the US far exceed the NHTSA standards because of the IIHS crash tests. While those are not government required, manufacturers want to meet the more stringent standards for PR reasons. The amount of money in design and manufacturing to meet the shallow offset frontal crash is substantial.
 
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