Electric Vehicles

[jadebox]

It seems to be mixed.

Right now, demand on the power grid is highest during the daytime and lower at night. Most current EV owners charge at night, so they are using the system at a time when other demands are low. That places little to no additional stress on the system.

But.....

Peak periods of electrical usage during the day are the main problem for power companies. They need capacity to handle the peaks, but want to avoid building new coal or natural gas plants because they are expensive to build. Solar and wind will help, but so will EVs. Newer EVs have bidirectional chargers. So, the power company can draw power from these EVs during peak periods and give it back later.

 

[bruto]

*********. Right now outside of Tesla and the Chevy Bolt fully electric cars have a range of less than 200 miles.

Let's say I buy a Nissan Leaf, which looks to be the cheapest fully electric car you can get right now. It has an ideal range of 150 miles.

I can kill 150 miles before lunch driving from site to site performing trouble calls. It's not super common but it's not a rare occurrence I can just not account for. And then I have to find a place to charge it. And it's not like just filling a tank, it takes time.

The whole "Oh I'm sorry boss I can't work because I'm waiting on my car to charge" is not some insane rare scenario I'm making up.

Exactly. Clearly at this point an electric vehicle is the wrong car for you. For others it likely is not, and we can hope that those early adopters will make coming generations of electric cars better.

I'm not sure what you think we're arguing about.

 

[CORed]

No, that's not needed. It was tried back when batteries had much shorter range than now, and failed in the marketplace because nobody needed it. What's needed is faster charging in more places, and we are getting that.

The other thing needed is a change of behavior. You don't forget to charge your cell phone and expect to get a battery swap, even though until recently most phones had easily swappable batteries. We need to get out of the mentality that you must go to a gas station to 'fill up', and get into the habit of charging overnight or during planned stops on a long trip.

As battery technology improves the range is increasing and charging time is reducing. If I had the money, I could buy an electric car today that has more range than I will ever use.

I really don't see battery exchange as a viable option. I suspect just the amount of charging rack and storage space needed for a busy exchange station would make the cost prohibitive, and since you are talking about swapping batteries weighing several hundred pounds, there will be mishaps that damage cars and/or batteries. I think it would be and expensive logistical nightmare.

 

[Puppycow]

I recently heard an idea to put a false "manual transmission" including a fake stick shifter and fake clutch pedal into an electric vehicle for people who are used to driving stick shift vehicles. It's a completely unnecessary thing for an electric vehicle, but some drivers apparently don't feel comfortable changing the way they drive. They want to be able to move a stick and feel like gear ratios are changing.

 

[crescent]

I recently heard an idea to put a false "manual transmission" including a fake stick shifter and fake clutch pedal into an electric vehicle for people who are used to driving stick shift vehicles. It's a completely unnecessary thing for an electric vehicle, but some drivers apparently don't feel comfortable changing the way they drive. They want to be able to move a stick and feel like gear ratios are changing.

We 'Mercans wouldn't need that, because none of us remember how to drive stick shifts anymore*

We would need noisemakers. BIG LOUD GRUMBLEGRUMPLEGRUMBLE noisemakers. And smoke bombs. It ain't 'Mercan if it ain't loud and smoky.




*effect exaggerated for drama. I actually still have a stick shift and know how to drive it. It has been literal years now since I've driven any other stick beyond my little old pickup

 

[bruto]

Just put playing cards in the spokes.

 

[lobosrul5]

We 'Mercans wouldn't need that, because none of us remember how to drive stick shifts anymore*

We would need noisemakers. BIG LOUD GRUMBLEGRUMPLEGRUMBLE noisemakers. And smoke bombs. It ain't 'Mercan if it ain't loud and smoky.




*effect exaggerated for drama. I actually still have a stick shift and know how to drive it. It has been literal years now since I've driven any other stick beyond my little old pickup

Yup... and many 'mericans are jackasses. I'm getting new windows in my bedroom because of the many many times I've been woken up from the jackasses street racing at midnight or 2 or 4 AM. And I wear earplugs as it is. Just an asside.

 

[Galaxie]

You're only exaggerating a little, crescent.

Ford had to replace the airbags in my car, and even the tech said, "What the...? I've never seen one of these with a manual transmission before!"

 

[crescent]

Yup... and many 'mericans are jackasses. I'm getting new windows in my bedroom because of the many many times I've been woken up from the jackasses street racing at midnight or 2 or 4 AM. And I wear earplugs as it is. Just an asside.

My neighbor is being evicted - and it sucks because he's a very nice man. He never even got behind on his rent, but his lease was up and the landlord wants to sell the house. It sucks.

But a mean little part of me is happy because he has very loud smoke-filled hobbies. Harley's and drag racing, and off-roading. That house is a cacophony of revving engines and exhaust every weekend. Virtually any new neighbor is likely to be quieter.

Which does have a point in the EV issue. For many people (but certainly not me), then engine is part of the aesthetic appeal. It will be a very long time before EV make inroads into that customer base.

 

[Dr. Keith]

I think there were some CVTs that were programmed to act like they have stepped ratios so that people would be more comfortable. Sort of kills any efficiency gains from the CVT.

I know some EV conversions retain the gearbox in older vehicles. It is not necessary, but it does allow the driver some selection of driving "mode" in a sense. Lower gear is more jumpy, higher gear is smoother, but there is so much torque that most people just use mid to higher gears.

 

[Dr. Keith]

My neighbor is being evicted - and it sucks because he's a very nice man. He never even got behind on his rent, but his lease was up and the landlord wants to sell the house. It sucks.

But a mean little part of me is happy because he has very loud smoke-filled hobbies. Harley's and drag racing, and off-roading. That house is a cacophony of revving engines and exhaust every weekend. Virtually any new neighbor is likely to be quieter.

Which does have a point in the EV issue. For many people (but certainly not me), then engine is part of the aesthetic appeal. It will be a very long time before EV make inroads into that customer base.

Truth, but watching EVs smoke ICE vehicles on drag strips is a hoot.

I say this as someone whose face was sore after a day of watching historic races at Laguna Seca. The sound is so visceral, you can feel it throughout your body.

 

[Steve]

It seems to be mixed.

Right now, demand on the power grid is highest during the daytime and lower at night. Most current EV owners charge at night, so they are using the system at a time when other demands are low. That places little to no additional stress on the system.

But.....

Many renewable power sources such as wind and (especially) solar generate more power during the day. There is a lot of wind power in Wyoming, for example, and it is typically windier during the day than at night there.

So.....

If we want to switch our power generation/collection over to wind and solar and dramatically increase the proportion of cars that are electric, then over the longer run we would want to switch to charging EVs during the day (because that's when wind/solar power is mostly generated). Get employers to install charging stations where their employees park. Charging stations in big parking lots at malls and airports and the like. A nice aspect of this is these places also make ideal places to install solar cells as shade structures. The car charges the battery off the solar system that is also protecting the car from sun and hail (I live in Colorado, which gets enormously destructive hail storms, the solar cells here weather them better than roof shingles and skylights do.)

Rooftop solar may turn out to be a big thing over the next few decades, I expect to see architects starting to include that in the basic design of all sorts of buildings, such as housing developments designed with more roof space facing south than north, arranging all the pipes and chimneys on houses so that they don't get in the way of solar cell installation, that sort of thing.

Interesting. So in the best scenario the increase in EV's and the changes to the power grid should happen together. Guess governments are the only organizations that could realistically coordinate and make that happen. I do not have much confidence. There will be "growing pains" but I have no doubt it has to happen eventually.

 

[arthwollipot]

And again I'm not downing electric vehicles. My next car almost certainly will be one (probably a plug in hybrid or range extended electric car, I don't think I can viably go 100% electric just yet)

I just realize they are only viable for people in dense urban areas and "LOL just refuel at your friendly neighborhood local RV park" is insane.

An EV would be perfect for the vast suburban wasteland where I live. I have an inside garage, so I am perfectly set up for it. I fully expect that my next car will be electric. Not for a couple of years though. I love my Jazz.

I recently heard an idea to put a false "manual transmission" including a fake stick shifter and fake clutch pedal into an electric vehicle for people who are used to driving stick shift vehicles. It's a completely unnecessary thing for an electric vehicle, but some drivers apparently don't feel comfortable changing the way they drive. They want to be able to move a stick and feel like gear ratios are changing.

Interestingly, my Jazz, which is not hybrid or electric but does get better fuel economy than the Prius I used to drive, has a continuous variable transmission, but it still has fake gears. I can feel the gear ratio "kick down" when I hit the accelerator, as though it were a normal automatic transmission. And if I put it into sporty mode I can manually change gear ratios with the flappy paddles. I lose my great fuel economy when I do that though.

 

[bruto]

As I think I've mentioned elsewhere, some areas (Vermont, for example) are better candidates for cheap solar power, because the infrastructure is so poor, and the possibility of new power plants so limited, that home generation is subsidized, in part, by the power company. It's cheaper than putting in new lines. Our main non-local source of power these days is from Hydro Quebec, which is a pretty good bargain, but requires more high tension lines.

But balancing that is the paradoxical fact that the infrastructure is so near capacity that larger solar installations cannot be put into many locations. There just isn't the line capacity for them. It's a problem we face now in our little town. All our lines are at capacity, and of course the power company doesn't want to have to upgrade big items like transformer stations.

So we're in a kind of limbo, but there's still room for home-sized installations. Alas I live at the base of a south-facing hill, and my 150 year old slate roof is not suited to a rooftop array, so it's not ideal, but I might yet figure out a way to set a solar plant far enough away from the house to work.

I could see, in some future time, probably after I'm dead, that places like this could host an electric vehicle with dedicated solar/grid charging. We'd still need to get some more charging stations around, and more watts to the buck would be nice, but a car that can get a couple of hundred miles off a day of sunshine would be pretty nice even if I had to take the truck sometimes on dark snowy days.

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

You could easily recharge in 30 minutes drive and be off to pick up your passenger and then drive back to Sydney without another stop.

Not to pick on you since multiple people are saying things like this but can a 30 minute charge actually fully charge any reasonable long range EV?


Multiple sources I see (I'll cite Wikipedia) indicate that a short charge like that won't get you charged back to full range.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charging_station

Fast charging at public charging stations >40 kW, capable of delivering over 60-mile (100 km) of range in 10–30 minutes

 

[jadebox]

Not to pick on you since multiple people are saying things like this but can a 30 minute charge actually fully charge any reasonable long range EV?


Multiple sources I see (I'll cite Wikipedia) indicate that a short charge like that won't get you charged back to full range.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charging_station

Because of the way the batteries work, you can usually only fast charge to 80% of capacity. How long it takes to do that depends on the charger, how fast the car can accept the charge, and the car's capacity. A Fast DC charge can charge my car to 80% (about 40 to 60 miles of range) in less than 20 minutes. I think some other EVs can charge much faster than that.

Edit: I think the 40kW number from the Wikipedia quote is at the low range of the fast chargers. Not sure, but I think 50kWis typical and some go up to more than 100kW.

 

[bonzombiekitty]

Not to pick on you since multiple people are saying things like this but can a 30 minute charge actually fully charge any reasonable long range EV?

A Tesla supercharger can apparently get you about 170miles worth of charge in 30 minutes. Not a full charge, but a good chunk. Fully charging takes much longer. For whatever science reason, the last 20% of battery takes significantly longer to charge.

 

[cullennz]

*********. Right now outside of Tesla and the Chevy Bolt fully electric cars have a range of less than 200 miles.

Let's say I buy a Nissan Leaf, which looks to be the cheapest fully electric car you can get right now. It has an ideal range of 150 miles.

I can kill 150 miles before lunch driving from site to site performing trouble calls. It's not super common but it's not a rare occurrence I can just not account for. And then I have to find a place to charge it. And it's not like just filling a tank, it takes time.

The whole "Oh I'm sorry boss I can't work because I'm waiting on my car to charge" is not some insane rare scenario I'm making up.

The Chevy Bolt and most of the Teslas don't either if it is actually tested properly and independently.

Interesting article on it.

https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32603216/ev-range-explained/

 

[crescent]

Peak periods of electrical usage during the day are the main problem for power companies. They need capacity to handle the peaks, but want to avoid building new coal or natural gas plants because they are expensive to build. Solar and wind will help, but so will EVs. Newer EVs have bidirectional chargers. So, the power company can draw power from these EVs during peak periods and give it back later.

Interesting. So in the best scenario the increase in EV's and the changes to the power grid should happen together. Guess governments are the only organizations that could realistically coordinate and make that happen. I do not have much confidence. There will be "growing pains" but I have no doubt it has to happen eventually.

Jadebox makes a good point that the infrastructure changes could lag pretty far behind an increase in EV use. We're probably some time, a decade or more, away from having enough EVs on the road to make a substantial demand on the electrical supply. I mean, we can continue to phase out carbon-based electrical capacity for some time while still having enough capacity to meet needs at night (when demand is lower), while using wind and solar to provide enough to meet daytime demands.

But in the very long term picture, we'll have greater ability to harvest electricity during periods of high wind and sunlight. That may someday reach the point where it becomes beneficial to charge cars and other power-storage devices during the daytime to draw down at night. We are far away from that point.

 

[acbytesla]

A little user report from my side.

I've had a Tesla Model 3 LR since March 2019. It has a maximum theoretical range of 540km but I only charge it to 80% unless I'm on roadtrips.

I can charge at home in the garage at 17km/h which is more than adequate for topping up overnight, otherwise with the new generation of Tesla superchargers I can stick 400km of range on it in the time it takes me to go to the bathroom and buy a coffee and snacks. My daily commute during normal times is 12km each way and so I only need to charge every fortnight or so.

I've done a couple of roadtrips of over 2000km without any issues at all. It's true that I needed to check the location of superchargers along the route just in case, but at the same time my weakening bladder and decreasing tolerance for fatigue mean I can only drive in 2.5 to 3 hour bursts anyway. Less on the German autobahns which are extremely tiring.

My nearest city is getting increasingly aggressive about car pollution and the structures are already in place to restrict access by category of emissions during pollution peaks. It's good to be zero-rated already and unaffected by this, even if I rarely drive into the city centre anyway.

In summary, this solution really works for me and my circumstances. Last month I sold the two ICE vehicles I also owned because I simply wasn't using them at all and I can't imagine going back to petrol or diesel again.

Oh yeah, and the performance. Good grief the performance.

Great post. My buddy bought the Model S about a year ago. He took me for a ride after he bought it. He showed me all these cool features and Easter eggs in it like how the volume ETC goes to 11. (Straight out of Spinal Tap) and of course Ludicrous mode. I guess the new top of the line models have the plaid mode. (Both from Space Balls)

I couldn't believe the acceleration in Ludicrous mode. It was like the take off of a jet airliner. Just throws you back into your seat. Lot of fun to drive.