Electric Vehicles

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A factor I'm reminded of by this video, but which the video doesn't mention...



It's about the main challenge facing electric vehicles being not the vehicle prices or the weight & range of the batteries, but the placement of charging stations. But that's all about places you stop at while traveling, which is the context in which a half-hour wait is said to make sense because you'd want to take about that much of a break anyway.

But, for daily life between local commutes, the idea is to charge it at your own home; nobody wants to stop & wait for a half-hour on the way home from work, now matter how many days of commuting you can go between episodes of needing to do that. But that not only means a lot more charging stations would need to be built & distributed than gas pumps, but also introduces a couple more complications about precisely where to place them: renting versus owning a home, and precisely where around your home you park.

So far, charging at home really only works if you own your home and you have a parking spot that other people won't park in: either your own driveway or your own garage. Neither of those applies to me.

I live in a big house that's been divided into four apartments for rent, with a driveway and 3-car garage that take up most of the back yard and the land on one side of the house. One of the four of us parks outside next to the garage and the other three have one garage spot apiece. If we were to start charging electric vehicles, we'd need at least four charging stations at a place we don't own. And the garage doesn't even have electricity. Even if somebody else were to take up the entire cost of the upgrade, they'd still need the owner's permission, or a law compelling it. And four wouldn't necessarily be enough. All four of us are single, but one or two couples could just as easily move in next after one or two of us move out, and any of us could sometimes have visitors who don't live with us. There's enough space for up to six vehicles in the back yard & garage, so either six chargers would be needed to make sure there's one for each spot even though we currently :shocked: only use four, or the option would need to be left open to add more sometime after the original upgrade if needed.

And that's without bringing street parking into consideration. Even some people who own a house still park on the street in front of it, not in a garage. I park in my garage during winter but on the street in front of the house in summer. Sometimes, in summer, I come back home and find some other vehicle in my usual spot on the street, so I either use another spot nearby or pull up into our driveway. At my last apartment, street parking was all there was, and we were all constantly shuffling around based on which ones were open when we arrived (and whether one side of that street was closed at the time for street-cleaning). Even if you got everybody to agree to lining the streets with chargers, you'd need some way to keep track of which vehicles are on which ones in order to know who's supposed to pay for the electricity that each one uses, unless electricity becomes communalized. Or, if you assigned each spot to a specific person, you'd have no way to prevent somebody from taking a spot that isn't his/hers, especially when a bunch of guests arrive to be in one place. And at the apartment I had before that, the pavement in front of the buildings had six parking spots assigned to the six apartments in each building, but there was also unmarked paved space between the groups of marked & assigned spots, where guests or cohabitants could park. I imagine the six marked spots per building would have chargers, but that leaves no way for whoever sometimes parks in the unmarked gaps to charge, and putting chargers in all those other spaces would mean acquiring almost twice as many chargers just for most of them to go unused most of the time...
 
Even if you got everybody to agree to lining the streets with chargers, you'd need some way to keep track of which vehicles are on which ones in order to know who's supposed to pay for the electricity that each one uses, unless electricity becomes communalized.

This bit at least is comparatively easy. In order to use a charger you need to activate it in some way. In the UK this is usually by using a phone app and/or having an account with the charger provider.

As the proportion of electric cars in Norway rises, it'll be interesting to see how they respond to the challenges posed by people not having dedicated street parking or a garage. It may be that a proportion of on-street parking is reserved for electric vehicles and that it's just considered impolite to park in a charging space when you have no need to charge.

Then again, for many people (myself and Mrs Don included) the weekly trip to the supermarket would provide plenty of time to charge for a full week's typical driving and even though we could easily charge at home, we wouldn't need to. Perhaps that same will be true for a significant proportion of Norwegians.

There will always be people whose mileage is such that they have to charge daily, or near daily, are unable to charge at home or work and cannot find the 30-45 minutes to charge during the day then a fully electric vehicle is probably not for them. It's possible that as the charging infrastructure improves then these people are increasingly edge cases.
 
I can foresee a future in which those who have a house and space to charge offroad can own electric cars, and those who don't have that luxury either use public transport, walk, or use electic cycles that have removable rechargeable batteries.

Oh, I forgot the self driving taxis, but then, I don't expect them to ever be viable.
 
I can foresee a future in which those who have a house and space to charge offroad can own electric cars, and those who don't have that luxury either use public transport, walk, or use electic cycles that have removable rechargeable batteries.

Oh, I forgot the self driving taxis, but then, I don't expect them to ever be viable.

IMO there's plenty of scope for people to charge at places other than their home so access to offroad personal charging shouldn't be a barrier.

As the number of electric cars increases then IMO solutions will be found for on-street charging (dedicated facilities or from streetlights), charging in public spaces and "Supercharging" stations which could provide entertainment while people charge their vehicles.

If you drive 300 miles a day then charging is a major challenge - but not too many people do 60-100,000 miles a year. Most people would only need to charge once or twice a week to allow them to travel the typical 10-20,000 miles a year.
 
Then again, if the installation costs them nothing and they stand to make some money, maybe the employer (or perhaps more accurately, the owner of the building) would agree to a third party installing charging points.
It's possible but it's a bit of a chicken and egg problem; until there's a number of electric cars parking there, there's no incentive for any enterprising business to invest in supplying charging points, and vice versa the only employees who will adopt electric cars before there are charging points are those who can charge at home and they won't pay a premium to use someone else's electricity at work.
 
It's possible but it's a bit of a chicken and egg problem; until there's a number of electric cars parking there, there's no incentive for any enterprising business to invest in supplying charging points, and vice versa the only employees who will adopt electric cars before there are charging points are those who can charge at home and they won't pay a premium to use someone else's electricity at work.

It'll be interesting to see how things work out in Norway.

If there's a political will then government locally or nationally can take a lead by providing incentives for companies to set up charging stations.
 
I work in the Australian apprenticeship system and have recently been involved with Tesla on training apprentices to maintain electric vehicles.

It comes as no surprise that many skills of motor mechanics are redundant when working on Teslas. But what I’m surprised and delighted to see that Australia’s training system has been quick to develop apprenticeships just for electric cars. It’s going to be exciting (well for me anyway) to see young people develop new skills. I’m inducting Tesla’s first Australian apprentice next week.
 
...and putting chargers in all those other spaces would mean acquiring almost twice as many chargers just for most of them to go unused most of the time...

This is, and has always been, a major, yet generally unrecognized, problem with privately owned cars: Most go unused most of the time.

EVs offer ways to move away from that and increase the average utility of individual cars:
I think of groups of people (companies, neighborhoods, entire towns) using fleets of cars. Employing cars that are hooked to the grid much of their time as buffers and temporary sources of electricity; cars smartly using those times of the day that there is a surplus of electrical energy to charge (at nights, if nuclear power dominates; mid-day, if solar dominates; whenever the wind is blowing nice and steady). Why, the owners of the EV may even get payed for letting grid operators use their batteries.

So EVs become parts of a public utility to best employ resources - electricity as supply comes, the grid, and the vehicles themselves.

Isn't it a huge waste to drive around a battery pack that has 400 miles in it if all you ever do all week is go 20 miles per ride?
The smart plan has you take the small-battery car when you commute, and the big-battery car when you need to travel further. The two-seater when you commute, the 4- or 6-seater when you take your family along.

And for you to personally own none of those.

Yes, of course there is the problem that everyone commutes on weekday rush hours, and everyone travels with family on weekends, so future solutions for this are sought - more flexible work and school times. Perhaps we learn from the current pandemic and stay-at-home regime and give each of us an additional day or two when we don't have to commute (home office, distance learning)? Let some families take their weekend Monday-Wednesday.

Yes, of course there is also the problem that people treat things like **** that they haven't bought with their own money to own long-term. And yet, flats and houses for rent are a thing, as are hotel rooms, so it's possible, isn't it? Just add regular car service to the charge, and charge extra for damage attributable to you.
 
Not... personally... owning... your automobile? :confused:

Why do you hate America?
 
I'm not looking forward to my car being just another thing I'm only renting the right to use under someone else's rules.
 
I'm not looking forward to my car being just another thing I'm only renting the right to use under someone else's rules.

I don't think it's an exclusive thing. You can own a car that you like, but only use it for pleasure and special occasions (it will more or less last you forever), and for all the practical stuff, rent transport.

Hans
 
I don't think it's an exclusive thing. You can own a car that you like, but only use it for pleasure and special occasions (it will more or less last you forever), and for all the practical stuff, rent transport.

Hans
A little problem arises if someone is regulating it. Who tells you when your use is permissible?
 
A little problem arises if someone is regulating it. Who tells you when your use is permissible?

Would it need to be regulated? I mean high powered sports cars are a thing that most people don't daily drive, but there is no regulation that says you can't daily drive a Viper. Garage queens aren't generally low mileage vehicles due to regulation, are they?

Someone at my office drives three wheeled open roof sports car (like a campagna T-rex) most days. I admire that, but I bet most owners of such cars use them mainly for ice cream runs on the weekend.
 
A little problem arises if someone is regulating it. Who tells you when your use is permissible?

Sorry, what do you mean? I expect it will be a business. You rent it. You pay a market price for it..


Hans
 
Sorry, what do you mean? I expect it will be a business. You rent it. You pay a market price for it..


Hans
What's the problem in understanding? You state that you can own a car you like but only use it for.....etc.

Who says what car I like, and who says what I can use it for? What if I don't like the business model? I don't rent my house either. I like station wagons, and it would not be convenient, out here in the country, to have to file a flight plan to insure that I won't be punished for unapproved uses.

I'm not against regulations as such, but it seems like a very difficult thing to do well.

I'm not saying the model would not work well for many, and would not make sense, especially in heavily settled areas, but it sounds a little cumbersome.
 
It also sounds like yet another thing that the people who live in a dense, urban core high population areas are going to go "Oh this solves everything! Everyone should do this! There's no downsides provided your lifestyle is exactly like ours!" and then start treating rural people like stupid hicks when they point out "This doesn't work for us."
 
It also sounds like yet another thing that the people who live in a dense, urban core high population areas are going to go "Oh this solves everything! Everyone should do this! There's no downsides provided your lifestyle is exactly like ours!" and then start treating rural people like stupid hicks when they point out "This doesn't work for us."

Right, like buses. We all think farmers and ranchers should ride buses to town, and frankly can't understand why they don't.

You seem to want to show that city folks don't understand rural issues, but instead you just seem entirely ignorant of city folks. You know, a lot of us have lived in the country at times and may do so again one day. We understand rural life, too.
 
I don't think it's an exclusive thing. You can own a car that you like, but only use it for pleasure and special occasions (it will more or less last you forever), and for all the practical stuff, rent transport.
Why would somebody who owns a vehicle want to use somebody else's?
 
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