Electric Vehicles

[Here_to_learn]

The whole thing is ripe for regulation, but we don't do that in our country, so it's a smorgasbord of BS from all the EV manufacturers fluffing their range estimates.

Seems to me it would be reasonably easy for a regulatory body to do their own calculation to determine a more or less accurate range figure for these various EVs and not allow the manufacturers to make dubious claims, it's more of a political problem than anything technical.

From what I understand there are several standards for estimating range, and some are more strict, while others allow the manufacturer more freedom in how to get the final figure.

This article seem to be a nice intro to some of the standards: https://www.lifewire.com/ev-ranges-explained-5202261

What is missing from calculating the single number for a model is the difference that speed does. One car may be very efficient at lower speeds, but due to the boxy shape quickly increase consumption at high speeds (Renault Zoe comes to mind), while another one retains a lot of efficiency even at highway speeds (Tesla 3 for example).

When an ad only quotes a single number, it's probably unclear to most potential new EV buyers that such a distance is not calculated at highway speed, nor at winter temperatures.

Using a tool like abetterrouteplanner.com, or looking at the simple range calculations at different speeds available on some manufacturers web pages might increase the public understanding.

In the end, I think we need the range standards to show several numbers, for city driving, and highway speeds, and potentially winter/summer also.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

Real world example…

We’re in Lansing, MI. On the way from TN we stopped at a friend’s house in Syracuse, IN. They conveniently have a 240v 50A receptacle in their garage. With the right adapter, it allows our Mobile Charger to charge at its max 32A.

Leaving there with about a 95% charge, we arrived in Lansing with more than 130 miles range remaining. For those unfamiliar, here’s the Supercharger landscape in Michigan and surrounds:

In most parts of the country, there are far more Superchargers than most folks realize.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

... I'm a bit baffled when it comes to this latest reveal that Tesla supposedly lied about their range. It goes against my extensive experience driving Teslas, and the many range tests done on them here in Norway.

Of course, I will now just be labelled "fanboi". Easy to dismiss things you don't like that way.

One thing that struck me about driving in Norway was the speed limits were often lower than I'd expect on similar roads at home in the UK. Not a very large difference but I wonder if it's enough to be significant for EV range.

 

[Ryokan]

One thing that struck me about driving in Norway was the speed limits were often lower than I'd expect on similar roads at home in the UK. Not a very large difference but I wonder if it's enough to be significant for EV range.

Perhaps. But the country isn't exactly flat, so there's a lot of steep roads.

But yes, electric cars use more energy and therefore lose more range with higher speeds (90km/h+). But then, so do fossil fuel cars, and I've never heard of anyone suing a fossil fuel car manufacturer for lying about the stated mileage on their car when they are driving fast.

Both kind of cars have to put down a value, and no matter what value you put down you can miss it by driving in certain ways.

 

[Here_to_learn]

One thing that struck me about driving in Norway was the speed limits were often lower than I'd expect on similar roads at home in the UK. Not a very large difference but I wonder if it's enough to be significant for EV range.

It does. It's quite easy to simule in abetterrouteplanner. A trip from Stockholm to Gothenburg would consume about 10% less if I limit the speed to 90 vs. allowing the top speed to go up to 120. Still to stay within the speed limits.

Abrp has good real word data from a lot of EVs, so it's possible to try out trips and see how they perform.

 

[novaphile]

One thing that struck me about driving in Norway was the speed limits were often lower than I'd expect on similar roads at home in the UK. Not a very large difference but I wonder if it's enough to be significant for EV range.

Very likely.

The EV forum that I'm on, is filled with UK respondents complaining that the car doesn't do as well at 80 miles per hour as it does at 35...

Physics is a cruel and heartless mistress.

A similar complaint that I'm not fond of:

"Waaaaah! I put on a roof-box, put two spare wheels and tyres in the boot, added a pile of fibreglass crap on the outside, and tow a 3 tonne trailer. THE MANUFACTURER LIED ABOUT THE RANGE!!!"

Some people seem to be as dumb as a pile of rocks.

 

[Babbylonian]

Perhaps. But the country isn't exactly flat, so there's a lot of steep roads.

But yes, electric cars use more energy and therefore lose more range with higher speeds (90km/h+). But then, so do fossil fuel cars, and I've never heard of anyone suing a fossil fuel car manufacturer for lying about the stated mileage on their car when they are driving fast.

Both kind of cars have to put down a value, and no matter what value you put down you can miss it by driving in certain ways.

The major difference is that most ICE cars don't offer range estimates while driving. The issue many people are having (at least with Tesla in the articles I've read) is that range estimates are varying more than they should during trips given relatively flat driving surfaces, consistent speeds, and stable temperatures.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

Perhaps. But the country isn't exactly flat, so there's a lot of steep roads.

But yes, electric cars use more energy and therefore lose more range with higher speeds (90km/h+). But then, so do fossil fuel cars, and I've never heard of anyone suing a fossil fuel car manufacturer for lying about the stated mileage on their car when they are driving fast.

Electric cars shouldn't have range estimators, just a gauge that sticks on 'full' for miles and miles, then suddenly drops to below half until you go over a bump, when the needle jumps up again.

Unfortunately most people have no idea of the realities of battery capacity or motor vehicle power usage. In the consumer industry batteries are regularly rated 'optimistically' and battery indicators are only a rough guide. Electric cars are one of the few areas where the device gives an accurate estimate of remaining run time.

Oh ****, I just remembered I left my Samsung smartphone in my pocket. Better check it right now. Crap, once again something inside got stuck on and is getting hot, now down to 31% and dropping rapidly. Only way to fix it is turn it off quick before the battery drains to nothing!

Both kind of cars have to put down a value, and no matter what value you put down you can miss it by driving in certain ways.

In the past that wasn't true, and most gas car owners probably don't know even the theoretical range of their vehicles. They just fill up when the tank gets low.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

One thing that struck me about driving in Norway was the speed limits were often lower than I'd expect on similar roads at home in the UK. Not a very large difference but I wonder if it's enough to be significant for EV range.

It sure is. Wind resistance increases with the square of speed, so higher speed equals much higher power consumption.

As a lithium battery ages its internal resistance increases, which reduces power output at high current due to increased voltage drop. Thus the range at high speed drops more as the battery gets older.

Around here the rural speed limit has been reduced to 80km/h in many places, which suits me fine because my 11 year old Leaf's battery is getting tired. At 50km/h the real range is close to indicated, at 100km/h it's half. In the old days the open road speed limit was 50mph (80.5km/h) and that was plenty fast enough for me!

 

[Roger Ramjets]

When an ad only quotes a single number, it's probably unclear to most potential new EV buyers that such a distance is not calculated at highway speed, nor at winter temperatures.

Or on an incline, or when it's wet, or there's a headwind. Passengers and extra luggage too. And tire pressure. The recommended pressure on my Leaf's tires is 36psi, but I keep them at 40psi for lower rolling resistance.

ETA and tire type too. When I replaced my tires with a cheaper brand the range went down by 5%.

 

[bruto]

The major difference is that most ICE cars don't offer range estimates while driving. The issue many people are having (at least with Tesla in the articles I've read) is that range estimates are varying more than they should during trips given relatively flat driving surfaces, consistent speeds, and stable temperatures.

I think a lot of recent ICE cars do have range estimates while driving, though you might have to select that and eliminate some other estimate such as MPG or trip distance, but if the car has an MPG reading it probably has range too. My bottom-line 2013 Hyundai has a range estimate, though I think it's based on a lower mileage than I actually get, and it goes blank below 30 miles. I have yet to get around to putting a gas can in the back and seeing just how far it will really go. Once you're familiar with the gas gauge, it's really not all that necessary anyway.

Driving style certainly makes a difference with this one, and I don't see why it wouldn't with an electric, especially given the electric's ability to deliver instant starting torque, which I suspect could be a temptation for lead feet.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

The major difference is that most ICE cars don't offer range estimates while driving. The issue many people are having (at least with Tesla in the articles I've read) is that range estimates are varying more than they should during trips given relatively flat driving surfaces, consistent speeds, and stable temperatures.

My Tesla has an “Energy” screen you can pull up. It allegedly factors in actual energy used, speed, temperature, elevation gain/loss, and more recently even local winds to estimate range and how you’re doing relative to its estimates. Driving right around the speed limit I find it amazingly accurate.

One example here:

 

[jeremyp]

Musk and Tesla lied about vehicle range and obstructed customers. Lawsuits to follow. Musk and Tesla silent on matter.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/explain...ands-of-driving-range-complaints-1507841.html
https://www.autonews.com/mobility-r...dled a variety,of a telemarketing boiler room.
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-batteries-range/

You can say that again...

 

[jeremyp]

The major difference is that most ICE cars don't offer range estimates while driving. The issue many people are having (at least with Tesla in the articles I've read) is that range estimates are varying more than they should during trips given relatively flat driving surfaces, consistent speeds, and stable temperatures.

Mine does and so do the majority of newer cars, by which I mean those less than about twenty years old that I have encountered.

 

[Kestrel]

In the United States, advertised EV range and efficiency are based on the results of a test designed by the EPA. That test simulates a mixture of city and highway driving. Just as with ICE vehicles, actual range and depends on the specific driving conditions.

 

[jadebox]

I traded my BMW i3 for a Hyundai Ioniq 5. I had bought the i3 to drive to work and back. Its 50-70 mile range was never an issue because I typically drove 30 miles or less a day.

But shortly afterward buying the car, COVID hit and I started working from home. So my needs have changed. Now, I really don't need a car at all. For the infrequent trips to a doctor or store, I could just drive our SUV.

But I am old and like nice things. And the i3 convinced me that I like driving an EV. It is overall a nicer experience and not having to ever stand at a pump filling the car with gas is a huge bonus.

Having about 300 miles of range on a full charge is a strange experience. I don't have to plug it in to charge every day, though I do l, and I have driven about 150 miles round-trip twice as often to visit family as I did before.

The Ioniq 5 is a really nice car. Like the i3, it is far larger than it appears in photos or from a distance. It comfortably seats five adults. I could tow our trailer with it, but can't imagine using such as nice car as a truck.

 

[theprestige]

The major difference is that most ICE cars don't offer range estimates while driving. The issue many people are having (at least with Tesla in the articles I've read) is that range estimates are varying more than they should during trips given relatively flat driving surfaces, consistent speeds, and stable temperatures.

Nonsense. Most ICE cars manufactured nowadays do in fact offer such estimates, and they vary just as much for exactly the same intractable reasons.

 

[novaphile]

Nonsense. Most ICE cars manufactured nowadays do in fact offer such estimates, and they vary just as much for exactly the same intractable reasons.

Yeah, that's a weird hill to die on. Range estimators have been around since what? The nineties?

My brother is fond of telling the story about the time he towed a water tank, on a trailer, on the way out the guessometer was freaking out. (Because they always assume that the current state is the permanent state when calculating range remaining).

On the way back it was saying:

1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32 etc. etc. (As it struggled to deal with the fact that the trailler wasn't such a drag anymore). It started making meaningful predictions again the following day.

 

[jadebox]

I think the reason for the lawsuits about EV range estimates is ... lawyers are lawyers. They think they can confuse a jury enough to win their cases because EVs are new and different and ... (insert any number of anti-EV myths here).

 

[ZirconBlue]

Nonsense. Most ICE cars manufactured nowadays do in fact offer such estimates, and they vary just as much for exactly the same intractable reasons.

My Subaru does it pretty well. It seems to be taking some sort of rolling average mileage as the baseline. When I get out on the highway, the range estimates will start increasing as I am getting better mileage.