Cont: Electric Vehicles II

[Rolfe]

I was caught in a traffic jam for three hours (famous South Australian blackout, when tornadoes took out a major powerline causing the grid to shut down).

My car consumed zero power (or petrol) while we were sitting in traffic.

Unlike the many, many, ICE cars that ended up being pushed to the side of the road and abandoned until the following day.

It turns out, that at any given time, there are a percentage of drivers who are running very low on fuel. It's not a big deal, because they can just pull into the next petrol station and put some more in.

Unless there's a blackout, and none of the petrol stations can pump fuel and they've been moving a few feet at a time in stalled traffic for three hours...

(The blackout lasted 8 hours in a big chunk of the metropolitan area, and many days in the worst rural areas.)

I've changed my fuelling habits since getting an EV and I'm a lot less likely to be caught low on fuel now. I don't know if that's true for everyone. But having my own fuel supply in my garage means I top up more often than I did when the nearest fuel was nine miles away.

I would have thought it might be wiser to pull off the road and stop before you ran out of fuel, whether petrol or charge, and wait for the jam to clear. But I've never been in that situation. I don't think constantly stopping and starting an EV is great for conserving range either, as getting the car moving from stationary takes a significant amount of juice. But I do feel much more confident in these situations in the EV, because of the marked increase in range caused by slow driving. Just sit there in the jam (reading a book because the car has a slow-traffic follow-my leader setting, not exactly Tesla capable but it's OK) and see the miles in hand to next charge number get bigger and bigger... And I don't have to think about, do I keep the engine running all the time (and maybe overheat), or to I keep stopping and starting it, and maybe drain the 12v?

That tornado blackout spawned several stories of people keeping vital equipment running by plugging in their EVs. One family powered a home kidney dialysis unit for many hours, and another mother used her car to power the fridge that keeps her diabetic child's insulin cool.

 

[JayUtah]

Every exhaust system leaks, unless your car has come right from the showroom floor. (Even then it's iffy.) But the leaks are inconsequential under normal operation. While there are holes and cracks, the path of least resistance is still usually down the nominal pipe. But it takes surprisingly little increase in back pressure to make those leaks much more consequential. That's where snow at the tailpipe becomes an issue. The other part of the scenario is that you're usually stuck in the snow, which means the gas leaking from those various happenstance leaks accumulates instead of dispersing. That's how it finds its way to the cabin air intake. So there are several individually benign factors combining to create danger.

To drag this back to the topic, air handling in parking structures is a major design factor. Underground parking needs to have prodigious air exchange rates to remove the exhaust gas, but then the whole thing needs to behave differently in a fire where you don't want something sucking in astounding amounts of fresh air.

The fluid dynamics of above-ground structures is getting more and more attention. Naturally you have more passive options available, but the problem is still to move lots of air at some times and stop moving air at other times. It turns out the best passive structural designs for exhaust removal are sadly the best designs for chimney effects in large-scale fires.

 

[catsmate]

My dad had an ambulance converted in to a camper that had an LPG conversion back in the 80s.
You started it on petrol then when the engine was warm flipped a switch that changed it over to LPG. You had to start on petrol to get everything warmed up or it would freeze the lpg valve on the carburettor.
There was only one LPG supply at a place in Redcar a 15 minute drive but it was worth the trip as it was so much cheaper than petrol.
There was some power loss so running on petrol was best for steep hills and it could be more problematic to get it to switch over in really cold freezing weather.

OT: Oddly you reminded me of one of the old Bond novels, one of John Gardners, where the was a reference to Bond possibly having his Saab converted to LPG if fuel prices continued to rise.

 

[catsmate]

I was caught in a traffic jam for three hours (famous South Australian blackout, when tornadoes took out a major powerline causing the grid to shut down).

My car consumed zero power (or petrol) while we were sitting in traffic.

Unlike the many, many, ICE cars that ended up being pushed to the side of the road and abandoned until the following day.

It turns out, that at any given time, there are a percentage of drivers who are running very low on fuel. It's not a big deal, because they can just pull into the next petrol station and put some more in.

Unless there's a blackout, and none of the petrol stations can pump fuel and they've been moving a few feet at a time in stalled traffic for three hours...

(The blackout lasted 8 hours in a big chunk of the metropolitan area, and many days in the worst rural areas.)

If you're stuck in immobile traffic, why not turn off the engine? Many drivers here do that at traffic lights.

 

[novaphile]

If you're stuck in immobile traffic, why not turn off the engine? Many drivers here do that at traffic lights.

I guess the problem was that they had to keep turning them on to crawl a few feet forward.

There was no need to turn mine off, it doesn't use much power if it is not moving.

 

[Andy_Ross]

That's where electric has an advantage, if it's not moving it's not using power apart from accessories.

 

[LiteBright]

So I'm apparently going to get an electric vehicle as my next company supplied car! I am beyond excited for it.

I work for a division of a fortune 200 company that employs over 100,000 people worldwide. Back in April, they tweeted out a message saying "Happy Earth Day everyone!" which to me at least, seemed a little tone deaf. Their corporate accountability group is always soliciting for ideas so I wrote them a little note. I said that although the message was nice, it was not really in keeping with the purpose of earth day. Like Memorial Day, earth day is not meant to be a celebration. Rather, its a reminder of the damage we are doing to our home and the need to do better. And along those lines, it would be nice to see our company making more of an effort to combat climate change and to publicize those efforts. I never heard back.

Then 2 weeks ago my Trump-loving manager called me up and asked me if I had written something to our parent company about climate change. I thought I was about to get disciplined or even let go but instead he said they wanted me to be a tester for a roll out of electric vehicles across their fleet. He hates the concept of EVs for no apparent reason so I think he thought this would be some sort of punishment for me but to his surprise I said "ABSOLUTELY!"

So I will be receiving an EV sometime early next year. The company will pay to have a level 2 charger installed at my home and also pay for electricity the car uses for charging. I have no idea of the make or model yet but I did insist that it not be a Tesla. Nothing political but the nearest Tesla service centre is a 45 minute drive from me so it could be a major hassle to get service. In return I will be reporting monthly on my experience and the suitability of an EV for my job. Our parent company has over 15000 company vehicles in its fleet so my feedback could have a major impact. I personally drive about 45,000km per year for work and its not uncommon for me to have to go upwards of 300km in a day visiting clients. The overall impact could be huge!

Then this week the lobbying began. My boss let it slip (likely intentionally) that the company is investigating EVs and that I would be testing the concept and reporting on it. In the few days since, I have been deluged with phone calls and emails from colleagues all over the continent, all basically saying the same thing... "I DON'T WANT AN EV! YOU HAVE TO GET US OUT OF THIS MESS!! Tell them there's no way this will work" Its been a bit of a nightmare but I am hoping the furor dies down in the coming weeks.

In the meantime, I'm pretty proud that my little note and my coming testing could play an outsize role in the fight against climate change. I plan to be rigidly objective and fair in my reporting.

 

[Agatha]

I've had an EV - Skoda Enyaq 85 - now for 6 weeks, and am getting used to the slightly different driving style. I've swapped electricity suppliers from So Energy to Octopus and got on to the Intelligent Go tariff, so I can charge the car (and also use the washing machine!) at 7p/kw overnight.

So far no downsides, but I haven't done any long journeys yet.

 

[novaphile]

That's where electric has an advantage, if it's not moving it's not using power apart from accessories.

Yes indeed.

On that particular day, the only thing that was running was the radio, in case the police broadcasted instructions/requests.

Scared the crap out of me when all the TPMS sensors turned off (they turn off if no movement is sensed), I received warnings for all four wheels, one after another. It made me think I'd run over a spike strip or something.

 

[Dabop]

I'm only a few grand off being able to buy the Atto 3 (SUV) I have been looking at, but now I'm looking at the new hybrid Shark 4wd ute instead... it has twice the towing capacity (2.4t instead of 1.2t for the Atto) downside is its a turbo petrol hybrid rather than pure EV and that smaller electric range, but that towing capacity means I can actually use the car trailer on the ute instead of only on the Merc tilt-tray, and its a 'proper' 4wd ute, rather than a 'softroader' AWD SUV...- but it does cost about $62kAu instead of the Attos $50k for the 400km LR version (mind you the turbo diesel Hilux I briefly looked at was over $70k, so both are cheaper than a new dinoburner)- and with most of my driving being local, the Shark would cover 99% of my driving off the solar panels at the shed so basically for free... (longer trips I have the choice of using the petrol or multiple recharges as once I get east, there's chargers every few kilometres!!! (the Shark has a 60-80km 'real world' range on its batteries, 120km 'theory range') (the Tesla wasn't even in the running- with the AWD starting at $68k and going up from there- $20k more than the Atto... and that abortion of a '4wd' from Tesla- well its ridiculously expensive (as well as ugly as crap)-plus it isn't even available for sale in Australia, and likely never will be- it doesn't meet Australian ANCAP safety regs and would need a major redesign to do so, where both the Atto and the Shark do already (the Shark got a 5 star rating even! the older design of the Atto only gave it a 4 star, but the 2025 new release Atto will likely get a 5 star as well)

Decisions, decisions....

(oh and these DO have lithium battery packs- and I'm not in the slightest concerned about them (BYD blade batteries are LFP (like almost all modern EVs) so very unlikely indeed to 'burst into flames lol)
or

 

[zooterkin]

I've had an EV - Skoda Enyaq 85 - now for 6 weeks, and am getting used to the slightly different driving style. I've swapped electricity suppliers from So Energy to Octopus and got on to the Intelligent Go tariff, so I can charge the car (and also use the washing machine!) at 7p/kw overnight.

So far no downsides, but I haven't done any long journeys yet.

Depending on your usage, and whether you have a compatible charger, Agile Octopus (where the rate changes each 30 minutes) can work out cheaper. We often get negative rates, where we get paid to use electricity. (My better half has spreadsheets!)

 

[Dabop]

Depending on your usage, and whether you have a compatible charger, Agile Octopus (where the rate changes each 30 minutes) can work out cheaper. We often get negative rates, where we get paid to use electricity. (My better half has spreadsheets!)

I don't get paid for my electricity- but then, I don't pay for my electricity either... lol
Currently these provide all my electricity to the van and shed...

That's only the small 'temporary array'- but even with only 1.5kw in action (750w north, 750w west) it is more than adequate (7-8kWh a day in spring and autumn, a bit less in summer and winter) for the limited usage of the van and shed- mind you- I leave this laptop running 24/7, plus the 'loo light' out in the shed runs 24/7 too, and do all my cooking on electric with that little array

Also sitting in the shed are the rest of the panels- a grand total of 72 of them for under $2000 Au (secondhand ex gridties from an installer who sells them by the pallet load), 250w each for a total of 18kw, with an estimated 94kwh a day in best conditions- my normal daily usage at the old place was 7kwh a day including using aircon during the day- and the new place will be about the same, so I will have ample 'reserves' for ev charging or even running the workshop (there's a mill and lathe as well as welders etc in there, although I already use the small mig and the plasma cutter/air compressor of the small array...)
Even in the worst weather conditions (black clouds and pouring down rain) I still get about 30% of my normal charge rate on the battery bank (16 400Ah LYP lithium cells giving me 20kWh of storage- currently connected 4S4P to give 12v for the caravan and 12v 8kw inverter, eventually will be 16s 48v with the big 12kw LF inverter (peaks at 36kw for up to twenty seconds!!! also currently sitting in the shed with the extra panels lol) so even in the worst conditions (ie cyclone weather) I will still be generating about 25-28kwh a day (but I wouldn't be driving anywhere in that anyway lol and such bad weather is very rare- maybe once or twice a year- we get around 300 sunny days a year here...

Not currently generating much power in there...

Once those are on the roof of the house- well an EV won't be an issue lol (although even out here in the bush- its only a less than ten minute drive to the nearest charger!!!- in a small country town of 1500 people- and currently 4 EVs already- 2x Atto3's, a Dolphin, and an MG4 with another 2 EVs coming soon- one of the local businesses is buying two T3 vans for its deliveries!!!)

Mind you- its an hours drive to the next town after mine (where there's another 4 chargers!!) and not one of those owners has any compunctions about setting off in their EVs- I suspect many of those with claims of 'range anxiety' have never even sat in an EV, let alone driven one... With the smallest range in any of them being the T3 vans (still 300km mind you) and a round trip only being 200km- they could drive there and back and still do the deliveries locally afterwards (although they get a full 20-80% charge in about 20 mins anyway- so stop for lunch while the van charges up and she's full again (well 80%- that last 20% takes as long as the previous 60% does..., so leave that for overnight charging only) that basically gives you another 250km worth of delivery range after lunch....

I can see why they went the T3's- a decent sized interior in the van, decent range, and solar gives you basically zero fuel costs with a big enough gridtied array- as opposed to paying $2.00 a litre plus for diesel!!!!

Our local servo...

- you can see why EV's are popular here... (my old dino burner diesel '99 Hilux 4wd uses 10l/100km- so that 200km round trip that would be free from my offgrid solar array costs $48 each and every time I drive it...

 

[Dabop]

Seems to mostly be because they heavy enough to be considered a commercial vehicle, which is another reason its stupid. Why make a vehicle that you can't sell widely in Europe. Too have for personal use and not big enough for commercial use? The other reason I saw for why they have them in Europe was the charging port isn't compatible with European standards. Its Tesla's standard and they sell their other cars there so, not sure why that would be a problem.

The Tesla Euro sedans/SUV (well most of the world except Japan and the US) use a standard CSS2 Combo plug, same as every other EV on the market (as do we here in Australia) so they can use any charger (and other vehicles can use a Tesla charger as well- just get the app on your phone)- but to date, the Cybertruck only has the 'Tesla connector' (that 3 pin 'cloverleaf design') of which outside the US/Japan there are.... none... (that image is dated, Taiwan now uses CSS2 Combo as well lol)



Everywhere else is CSS2 Combo...




Same as every other brands charge port...

BYD



MG4



VW (ETransport van)


They all use the CS2 Combo (even Nissan has bitten the bullet and dropped the CHAdeMO for CS2 Combo in their latest cars- so expect to see less and less CHAdeMO equipped chargers around in the future)

Now obsolete CHAdeMO port (Nissan and Toyota, now quietly dropped for CSS2)


There's no real reason why they couldn't fit a CS2 to bring it into line with 'everywhere else'- but meh- they aren't likely to pass most countries safety standards anyway, so without major modifications, the Cybertruck is never going to be seen outside north America...

(they brought one over here to see about getting ANCAP approval here- didn't pass...)

As our ANCAP ratings are roughly in line with EU standards, it wouldn't pass there either...

Cybertruck looks weird anyway- more for attention seekers than serious use imho ('look at me, looook at MEEEE!!!')- but BYD have released their Shark Hybrid ute here (looks like every other ute on the Aussie roads- and the full EV version is coming here 2026..)- AND it got a 5 star rating first time LOL



We're spoiled for choice outside the US- with about a dozen major brands selling sedans/SUV's and now 4WD EVS with several different models each available here in Australia and more coming next year- including two more 4wd utes (another hybrid and a full electric) including some larger vehicles if you need them for deliveries etc, there's several different brands available there too...

Jac


Fuso


Volvo


As well as several others...

The US has practically nothing available in comparison...

 

[Agatha]

Depending on your usage, and whether you have a compatible charger, Agile Octopus (where the rate changes each 30 minutes) can work out cheaper. We often get negative rates, where we get paid to use electricity. (My better half has spreadsheets!)

Cheers, I will look into that. A negative rate sounds amazing!

 

[Rolfe]

I'm finding IOG to be addictive enough on its own and really need to stop looking at apps (and gloating). Agile sounds like it takes over your life.

Damn EV is a gateway drug. First it's the car, then it's solar and battery storage, and I've just ordered an e-Bike. Meet my imminent pride and joy (just to see if this new platform takes pictures the way the EV forum where I'm a moderator does).


Oh yes, this is great. Much better platform. (I'm just going to have to remember I can't fix other people's typos here...)

 

[The Don]

I'm finding IOG to be addictive enough on its own and really need to stop looking at apps (and gloating). Agile sounds like it takes over your life.

Damn EV is a gateway drug. First it's the car, then it's solar and battery storage, and I've just ordered an e-Bike. Meet my imminent pride and joy (just to see if this new platform takes pictures the way the EV forum where I'm a moderator does).

View attachment 57508
Oh yes, this is great. Much better platform. (I'm just going to have to remember I can't fix other people's typos here...)

Sounds a familiar trajectory. Our panels and battery have significantly cut our electricity costs, Mrs Don loves her EV and eBike (she's riding 250km+ a month for fun) and all of our powered garden tools, including the mower, are cordless.

That's a great eBike you've chosen. A couple of people in the cycling club have that model.

Our friend Peter has gone a couple of steps further, he's junked his oil boiler and replaced it with an air source heat pump and installed a wind turbine as well.

 

[Rolfe]

I got a new boiler in 2019 before there was really any publicity that one should be considering a heat pump. Also, I have microbore radiator pipes. I'd have to rip the house apart. It's just not going to happen. Also, talking to someone in the village who has a heat pump (actually two) he says they're OK if it's relatively mild but when the temperature goes below 3 degrees the oil boiler is set to come on. I occasionally contemplate a wind turbine, but I read that they're not nearly as practical for domestic use as solar is, even here where the trees in my front garden grow at an angle!

I originally ordered a different model of e-Bike which was supposed to be "despatched within two days from our UK warehouse" but after they'd taken my money they did an oops, updated their web site, and said it would be into the New Year before it arrived. I demanded my money back, initially intending to re-order when they were back in stock, but took the opportunity to research what was available in more detail and came up with the Ribble. They said 2-4 weeks then gave me a 6-week delivery date, but I'll cope. It's a bit more expensive, but it's a better bike. Also, having a bike I can shove in the car and take it back to the maker if there's a problem rather trumps one that comes in a box from China.

When I got my MG4 I thought, the standard range is fine for all my day-to-day usage, and I don't often go on long trips. I could always hire a petrol car if I wanted to go down to England. Huh. The EV is just such a joy to drive my habits have completely changed and I head off at the drop of a hat. I saw that bike on the web site, and promptly arranged a test ride at Clitheroe, a 360-mile round trip. I'm going back to collect the bike too, even though they'd deliver it here. I saw an event I fancied in Sussex and just booked it. We had a nice spell of weather in September and I just chucked an air bed and a sleeping bag (and a kettle and stuff) in the car and took off up north. I also think I always had a bit of a conscience, subconsciously as it were, about driving an ICE car unnecessarily. That's gone. Also, I don't mind putting the miles on the car because I know EVs are good for a lot further than the average petrol car.

I got a shot on an e-Bike at the Everything Electric show at Harrogate in May and really liked the concept, but not the actual bike. I had no idea there were e-Bikes that weighed no more than my normal bike, and thought there wasn't a lot of point in buying something I could only ride from home, as I wouldn't be able to lift it into the car. When I saw the review of the Chinese bike-in-a-box and that it was only 17 kg I thought, that's surely possible. Well, I don't have an exact weight for the Ribble, but they're talking 13-14 kg. My current bike is 15.7 kg. It's a complete game-changer. I keep looking at tracks and green lanes I wouldn't really have contemplated on my pedal cycle and thinking, oh yes! My ambition (need to work up to this) is to ride over the Corrie Yairack pass. And I can charge the bike from the car - the MG4 isn't even going to notice 250 watt-hours.

 

[Dabop]

Problem is that most 'domestic' wind generators are impracticably small- and rarely mounted high enough to get clean airflow...
(I've installed quite a few on yachts and a few on offgrid housing over the years)

The little ones (less than a metre blades) vary from a 'rated' 100w up to a (hilarious) 1.2kw- BUT- when you look at the wind speed diagrams, they are only rated that at ridiculously high windspeeds- the slower the windspeed, the lower the output...

In practice, many don't even start to generate even small amounts of power until its a 'good stiff wind' as in blow a hat away or turn an umbrella inside out' strength winds- and won't make their 'rated power' until its literally 'roofs blowing off houses cyclone winds' weather...

(99% off the elcheapo crap found on the market fits this category- there's a very few that actually show their realistic ratings, but many of the half decent brands have disappeared- who's going to buy a '80w' windgenny' when some elcheapo says '1200w!!!' on the box???)

The other issues are clean air flow- in reality, they should be mounted in clean airflow- which means at least 3x the height of any 'nearby' obstructions (nearby being a relative term- a tree for example can have air turbulence behind it from the prevailing wind for upwards of 100m away, and three times higher than the tree itself!!!) which means in almost all cases you 'should' have a pretty tall tower to mount the genny on (like say the mast on a yacht lol)- the other issues is noise and vibration- the blades themselves are fairly quite but can be heard in higher winds, and the entire wind genny will often 'rumble' through its mount- not an issue on a remotely mounted tower- but attached to a house or (worse) on a steel hulled boat- it can resonate at certain wind winds (turbulent air makes it worse too lol) and if you happen to be trying to sleep.... urgh... imagine trying to sleep in what is effectively a big steel drum in a steel boat, with the entire thing resonating to the sound of a low pitch 'drrrrrrrrrr' whenever the winds blowing... 24/7 at sea...

(worse, many of the smaller units have no actual braking system, only a high windspeed furling system, so you can't 'stall it out' to shut it up- I have seen some boat owners literally destroy their own brand new units which were improperly mounted mid voyage because the drone through their hull simply wouldn't allow sleep and there was no way to stall it out or brake it... so they 'break it' to brake it... they got that desperate lol)

 

[Rolfe]

Just a comment on how much things have improved here since I got my EV.

I often go to visit friends in Halifax, about 185 miles away. About a month after I got the car I went there as a try-out for coping with charging away from home. It's not that there weren't chargers, but they were all 50 kw units, either the old Electric Highway installations in motorway service stations, or Instavolts in supermarket car parks. Also, although I didn't have to wait, there were only a couple of plugs at each location, which didn't bode well for busy times. Basically if you were in an EV and using the northern reaches of the M6, you better not be in a hurry.

I went back last Christmas, in cold weather, realising that unless I wanted to charge twice on the way I had to find a plug in or near Penrith. The supermarket had a couple of (shared) 60 kw plugs, and there was another Electric Highway installation at the Rheged Discovery Centre. The supermarket was a bust, someone charging to 100% and even then not coming back to his car, a queue, and with shared power I dread to think what charging speeds people were getting. However there was a free plug at the Rheged Centre so I buggered off there and got it. Fortunately it was the plug that was shared with the CHAdeMO and Mr Leaf didn't show up, so at least I got the 50 kw. (The drivers on the other unit, with two CCS plugs and shared power, weren't so lucky.) It took about 40 minutes to get charged, but at least the coffee and scones were good.

I've been up and down that road quite a few times since, and noted the proliferation of decent chargers at the actual motorway service stations. Todhill, Southwaite, Tebay, and shortly there will also be Killington Lake. There's also a 12-charger site at Carlisle North. Heading back for Halifax tomorrow, and there are no less than SIXTEEN 105 kw plugs at Tebay, perfectly situated for a break and with decent food. But I'm really spoiled for choice. I'll probably go for the Carlisle Ionity site on the way home, or maybe the open Tesla superchargers at Gretna (being a nicer stop than the Applegreen chargers at the motorway service station).

My own car doesn't charge all that fast, but even so ABRP says I only need to stay at Tebay for 12 minutes. I will charge longer than that, but even so I won't have to linger over the coffee. For people with faster-charging cars, they'll probably just have time to go to the loo. Or when Killington Lake is open, with reputedly better than 300 kw on offer from some new design of Gridserve, it's hardly going to be worth walking away from the car.

 

[a_unique_person]

Thanks for the great info. I'm thinking of going EV. We do some long interstate trips so I've been putting it off.