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Cont: Electric Vehicles II

I would recommend you to use Abetterrouteplanner to simulate your route. Try it with different EVs that fit your other requirement, like size and so on. You can then play around with all the parameters like extra load, road conditions, temperatures and battery degradation and see what cars will take you there with a resonable about of SOC left.

In my experience, the results you get from that site are very realistic, and I use whenever I'm planning long drives for vacations.
Thanks for posting the link. That is an outstanding tool. I spent a while checking the trip with the EVs on my short list. Assuming a starting charge of 90% with an extra load of 180kg, there wasn't a single one that could do the trip without a charging stop, even the model that advertises a 580km range. In fact, the only model I found that didn't require a stop was a Tesla and they are definitely not on my list, not just because they are run by a nazi sympathizer but also because their nearest service centre is an hour from me.

But the one thing it showed me that I hadn't considered is that you aren't forced to fully charge on a stop, only charge enough to get you to your destination. Most of the models I checked required a charging stop of 5-10 minutes which isn't as onerous as the 40 mins I was expecting. Just enough time to get a coffee and have a pee. I just need to find a charger close to a 24hr coffee shop. I grew up without indoor plumbing so I can pee anywhere but my wife is a city girl and a little more picky about these things.

So far, the Hyundai Ioniq 5 is at the top of my list. My neighbour has one and absolutely loves it.
 
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If you can't postpone a change of car, then look for something in the used car market that will come as close as you can to your ideal. That way you won't lose too much if you trade it in for something a lot more suitable in a couple of years. It's amazing what good cars there are without a huge mileage on them and still fairly recent, that come on to the second-hand market.

That's valuable advice and something I may look into. I've actually never bought a new car in my life given that they depreciate so quickly. Maybe a used EV that would fill in the gap for a couple of years would be the better choice.
 
If you can't postpone a change of car, then look for something in the used car market that will come as close as you can to your ideal. That way you won't lose too much if you trade it in for something a lot more suitable in a couple of years. It's amazing what good cars there are without a huge mileage on them and still fairly recent, that come on to the second-hand market.
I'm wondering if some kind of odometer chip could be made that could give the government the mileage. Somehow eliminating the need for humans manufacturing a workaround.
 
Thanks for posting the link. That is an outstanding tool. I spent a while checking the trip with the EVs on my short list. Assuming a starting charge of 90% with an extra load of 180kg, there wasn't a single one that could do the trip without a charging stop, even the model that advertises a 580km range. In fact, the only model I found that didn't require a stop was a Tesla and they are definitely not on my list, not just because they are run by a nazi sympathizer but also because their nearest service centre is an hour from me.

But the one thing it showed me that I hadn't considered is that you aren't forced to fully charge on a stop, only charge enough to get you to your destination. Most of the models I checked required a charging stop of 5-10 minutes which isn't as onerous as the 40 mins I was expecting. Just enough time to get a coffee and have a pee.

So far, the Hyundai Ioniq 5 is at the top of my list. My neighbour has one and absolutely loves it.
Yes, there are a lot of things to learn when planning for long(er) drives with an EV, especially wintertime. Here are a couple of suggestions:

  • If you have charging at home, start with a pre-heated car and battery. That increases the range you can go.
  • Check the charging curve for the car. Abetterrouteplanner (ABRP) knows it, so it includes it in the planning, but it's good to have an understanding of it. Usually you aim to get to the fast charger at around 10% SOC, and only charge enough so that it takes you to the next planned stop, either the final destination or the next fast charger.
  • Don't charge to 100% (or most often even 90%) on a fast charger - it's expensive and you will block the charger for others that may need it. If you need to charge to 100% for a long trip - do that at a slow charger, either at home, or at a public place.
  • If you are to charge at a slow (11kW) charger at your destination during winter times, it might be worth plugging in directly when you arrive, since the battery is warm. If you leave your car outside in -20, and then try to charge, it first will need to heat up a couple of 100kgs of battery before any charging happens. And you will have to pay for that electricity...
  • Ensure that your navigator knows that you are aiming for a fast charger, so that the car can pre-condition the battery. That gives you the best charging experience while on the way.
  • The first couple of times you will have range anxiety and charge too much. Using ABRP will help you double-check the cars navigation and planning, and is most often better than the built in navigator. After a couple of times it instead becomes a sport to charge as little as possible but still get to the destination! Just remember to leave some extra to handle if you get stuck in a queue/blocked road.
 
Yes, there are a lot of things to learn when planning for long(er) drives with an EV, especially wintertime. Here are a couple of suggestions:

  • If you have charging at home, start with a pre-heated car and battery. That increases the range you can go.
  • Check the charging curve for the car. Abetterrouteplanner (ABRP) knows it, so it includes it in the planning, but it's good to have an understanding of it. Usually you aim to get to the fast charger at around 10% SOC, and only charge enough so that it takes you to the next planned stop, either the final destination or the next fast charger.
  • Don't charge to 100% (or most often even 90%) on a fast charger - it's expensive and you will block the charger for others that may need it. If you need to charge to 100% for a long trip - do that at a slow charger, either at home, or at a public place.
  • If you are to charge at a slow (11kW) charger at your destination during winter times, it might be worth plugging in directly when you arrive, since the battery is warm. If you leave your car outside in -20, and then try to charge, it first will need to heat up a couple of 100kgs of battery before any charging happens. And you will have to pay for that electricity...
  • Ensure that your navigator knows that you are aiming for a fast charger, so that the car can pre-condition the battery. That gives you the best charging experience while on the way.
  • The first couple of times you will have range anxiety and charge too much. Using ABRP will help you double-check the cars navigation and planning, and is most often better than the built in navigator. After a couple of times it instead becomes a sport to charge as little as possible but still get to the destination! Just remember to leave some extra to handle if you get stuck in a queue/blocked road.

All fantastic advice, thanks.

My plan is to have a level 2 charger at home so 90% of my charging will take place there. At the cottage I'll only have an NA standard 120V outlet to charge but we rarely go there for less than 4 days and don't drive anywhere while there so it shouldn't be a problem slow charging to 90%.

Its definitely a change in mindset from years of driving an ICE vehicle but I think with a little adaptation and planning, we will be just fine.
 
Thanks for posting the link. That is an outstanding tool. I spent a while checking the trip with the EVs on my short list. Assuming a starting charge of 90% with an extra load of 180kg, there wasn't a single one that could do the trip without a charging stop, even the model that advertises a 580km range. In fact, the only model I found that didn't require a stop was a Tesla and they are definitely not on my list, not just because they are run by a nazi sympathizer but also because their nearest service centre is an hour from me.

But the one thing it showed me that I hadn't considered is that you aren't forced to fully charge on a stop, only charge enough to get you to your destination. Most of the models I checked required a charging stop of 5-10 minutes which isn't as onerous as the 40 mins I was expecting. Just enough time to get a coffee and have a pee. I just need to find a charger close to a 24hr coffee shop. I grew up without indoor plumbing so I can pee anywhere but my wife is a city girl and a little more picky about these things.

So far, the Hyundai Ioniq 5 is at the top of my list. My neighbour has one and absolutely loves it.

I use it a lot, although it has a tendency to underestimate my consumption. I probably need to re-enter some economy figures.

If you're OK about stopping for ten minutes, that massively simplifies your problem. I thought you were against stopping at all. Bear in mind that an EV charges fastest from about 10% to 50% state of charge. So if you want a short stop, you go for three things. First, you pick a car with a fast DC charging curve. Don't even look at anything much less than 150 kw headline power rating. Second, you find a charger that is capable of delivering what your car can achieve - no matter how fast your car can charge, you will only get about 48 kw max from a 50 kw charger. Third, you stop when your battery is quite low. 20%, even 10% if you can hold your nerve. Say you need 30% more charge to be sure of getting home in good order. You can get that in a few minutes if you're charging say 15% to 45%.

Not many people stop for 40 minutes whatever they're driving. Sure, I do, but that's because my car's top charging speed is rated at only 88 kw, and I'm lucky if it does that, also because it's a relatively small battery so I have a tendency to take it up to 90% when the charging is significantly slower. But that's just a thing my car does. Honestly, 20 minutes will get you 10-20% to 80% on many if not most long-distance touring EVs.

Another point. If you can slow charge at your cottage, you can start at 100% not 90%. Why wouldn't you? Yes, there are warnings not to leave NMC batteries at 100% for significant periods of time, but there is absolutely no harm at all in charging to 100% if you're going to be driving it down under 80% the next morning. Just charge to 80% in readiness, and add the last 20% the night before you're setting off on the long trip.

If your neighbour likes his car then that's a good recommendation, but take a good look at the specs because you may have slightly different requirements. Not just battery size/range, but top charging speed and the advertised 10% to 80% time on a charger that's powerful enough to let the car achieve that speed.

Teslas are marmite anyway, but the Tesla supercharger network is excellent and most of it is open to all cars. Try not to let your opinion of Elon Musk stop you from buying electricity from his company now and again.

What I would not recommend is buying another ICE car to tide you over. It's a dying technology, and the sooner you get started on the learning curve of the new tech, the better. If you get something you can live with for a couple of years, even with a few compromises, and you've done the maths on changing again after that time, you'll find that you know so much more about what you want and how to manage your long journey that you'll be in a great position to make a perfect choice when that time comes.
 
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[...]
Teslas are marmite anyway, but the Tesla supercharger network is excellent and most of it is open to all cars. Try not to let your opinion of Elon Musk stop you from buying electricity from his company now and again.
[...]
One point about the Tesla Supercharges. The Ioniq 5 (together with some other 800V cars from Kia/Hyundai) do not charge well on the 400V Tesla chargers. So the E-GMP cars (that's the Kia 800V platform) will not reach their potential on Tesla chargers, and should instead be charged on 800V+ chargers. The KIA EV3 is a 400V car from what I understand, but Kia EV6 and EV9, as well as the Hyundai Ioniq 5 and 6 are 800V.
 
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I use it a lot, although it has a tendency to underestimate my consumption. I probably need to re-enter some economy figures.

If you're OK about stopping for ten minutes, that massively simplifies your problem. I thought you were against stopping at all. Bear in mind that an EV charges fastest from about 10% to 50% state of charge. So if you want a short stop, you go for three things. First, you pick a car with a fast DC charging curve. Don't even look at anything much less than 150 kw headline power rating. Second, you find a charger that is capable of delivering what your car can achieve - no matter how fast your car can charge, you will only get about 48 kw max from a 50 kw charger. Third, you stop when your battery is quite low. 20%, even 10% if you can hold your nerve. Say you need 30% more charge to be sure of getting home in good order. You can get that in a few minutes if you're charging say 15% to 45%.

Not many people stop for 40 minutes whatever they're driving. Sure, I do, but that's because my car's top charging speed is rated at only 88 kw, and I'm lucky if it does that, also because it's a relatively small battery so I have a tendency to take it up to 90% when the charging is significantly slower. But that's just a thing my car does. Honestly, 20 minutes will get you 10-20% to 80% on many if not most long-distance touring EVs.

Another point. If you can slow charge at your cottage, you can start at 100% not 90%. Why wouldn't you? Yes, there are warnings not to leave NMC batteries at 100% for significant periods of time, but there is absolutely no harm at all in charging to 100% if you're going to be driving it down under 80% the next morning. Just charge to 80% in readiness, and add the last 20% the night before you're setting off on the long trip.

If your neighbour likes his car then that's a good recommendation, but take a good look at the specs because you may have slightly different requirements. Not just battery size/range, but top charging speed and the advertised 10% to 80% time on a charger that's powerful enough to let the car achieve that speed.

Teslas are marmite anyway, but the Tesla supercharger network is excellent and most of it is open to all cars. Try not to let your opinion of Elon Musk stop you from buying electricity from his company now and again.

What I would not recommend is buying another ICE car to tide you over. It's a dying technology, and the sooner you get started on the learning curve of the new tech, the better. If you get something you can live with for a couple of years, even with a few compromises, and you've done the maths on changing again after that time, you'll find that you know so much more about what you want and how to manage your long journey that you'll be in a great position to make a perfect choice when that time comes.
All great advice.

Originally I was hoping to make the drive without stops but that was when I had assumed that a stop was a 40 minute ordeal. 5-10 minutes is nothing to worry about. We usually have to make a bathroom stop anyway so its a matter of figuring out the best location ahead of time. Looking at that app, there are 2 Tesla superchargers sites en route and a number of other 150kw chargers as well. I just need to look at what amenities are nearby and plan accordingly. Obviously I have a lot to learn about charging curves and the various electrical architectures available.

I'm not opposed to using a Tesla site to charge, I just don't like the idea of having one in my driveway or having to travel nearly an hour if I need service.

I will definitely not be buying another ICE vehicle. With about 1 in 5 new vehicles sold in Canada being EVs, the charging infrastructure is good and getting better by the week. As a person who loves the natural world, I am depressed at the changes I see happening all around me due to climate change and I've made a commitment not to buy another ICE ever again in addition to many other changes I've made to reduce my carbon footprint. Given that I drive about 35,000 km per year and the electricity produced in my area is about 55% nuclear, 10% hydro and 15% other renewables, I think moving to an EV is probably the most positive change I can make.
 
One point about the Tesla Supercharges. The Ioniq 5 (together with some other 800V cars from Kia/Hyundai) do not charge well on the 400V Tesla chargers. So the E-GMP cars (that's the Kia 800V platform) will not reach their potential on Tesla chargers, and should instead be charged on 800V+ chargers. The KIA EV3 is a 400V car from what I understand, but Kia EV6 and EV9, as well as the Hyundai Ioniq 5 and 6 are 800V.

This is something I hadn't even considered but will be an essential part of my research. The manufacturers and salespeople don't tell you a lot about this so I'll need to find some good resources on the various architectures available and how well they play with each other.
 
Teslas are marmite anyway, but the Tesla supercharger network is excellent and most of it is open to all cars. Try not to let your opinion of Elon Musk stop you from buying electricity from his company now and again.

What I would not recommend is buying another ICE car to tide you over. It's a dying technology, and the sooner you get started on the learning curve of the new tech, the better. If you get something you can live with for a couple of years, even with a few compromises, and you've done the maths on changing again after that time, you'll find that you know so much more about what you want and how to manage your long journey that you'll be in a great position to make a perfect choice when that time comes.

I would add to your advice. You are in the UK, while LiteBright is in Canada. His options and experience is more similar to the US than the UK. Vehicle options are North America centric. The Tesla Charging Network here kind of dominates. Only in the last few years has serious competition arisen. Companies like Charge America etc. Also we don't know Lite Bright's budget etc. Who knows? Maybe a used ICE vehicle makes more sense. And maybe not.
I'd recommend that Lite Bright visit some of the YouTube channels like Out of Spec as they have lots of videos reviewing not only different EV models, but products, They cover just about everything associated with the North American EV experience.

 
One point about the Tesla Supercharges. The Ioniq 5 (together with some other 800V cars from Kia/Hyundai) do not charge well on the 400V Tesla chargers. So the E-GMP cars (that's the Kia 800V platform) will not reach their potential on Tesla chargers, and should instead be charged on 800V+ chargers. The KIA EV3 is a 400V car from what I understand, but Kia EV6 and EV9, as well as the Hyundai Ioniq 5 and 6 are 800V.

Good point. I tend to think it's only the Porsches and so on of this world that don't play nice with Tesla superchargers, but there are more cars coming out with 800v architecture. Of course I suspect it's the way things will go eventually, but at the moment it's a mismatch. All these things are part of the learning curve and awareness needs to happen before the purchase.
 
I would add to your advice. You are in the UK, while LiteBright is in Canada. His options and experience is more similar to the US than the UK. Vehicle options are North America centric. The Tesla Charging Network here kind of dominates. Only in the last few years has serious competition arisen. Companies like Charge America etc. Also we don't know Lite Bright's budget etc. Who knows? Maybe a used ICE vehicle makes more sense. And maybe not.
I'd recommend that Lite Bright visit some of the YouTube channels like Out of Spec as they have lots of videos reviewing not only different EV models, but products, They cover just about everything associated with the North American EV experience.


Good choices. I like Kyle, but I wish he would tell us a bit more about that Coda he rescued. I want to know its battery SoH and other stuff, and he seems to have forgotten about it.

Well, we now know that LiteBright doesn't want another ICE car, which I'd say is a good decision. Around here, no matter how poor your budget, you'll get something to suit you in the used EV market, and the subsequent savings in the maintenance and running costs department aren't negligible.
 
Good choices. I like Kyle, but I wish he would tell us a bit more about that Coda he rescued. I want to know its battery SoH and other stuff, and he seems to have forgotten about it.

Well, we now know that LiteBright doesn't want another ICE car, which I'd say is a good decision. Around here, no matter how poor your budget, you'll get something to suit you in the used EV market, and the subsequent savings in the maintenance and running costs department aren't negligible.
I don't own an EV yet. So in a way, I'm talking out of my ass. But I have been researching the hell out of it. I want a vehicle I can "fill up" with my solar panels because I'm super cheap. I mean why pay a $100 a week to fill up when I can plug in for free?

I've learned a lot from this thread. But some of it really doesn't apply to the US. EV options in the US are very different than they are in Australia, New Zealand and Europe. For example, few of the inexpensive Chinese EVs are available here. Also I think there appears to be a lot more surprises buying a non-Tesla EV here than over there. Tesla says that non-Tesla vehicles can charge at a Tesla Supercharger. But in reality, not at all Tesla superchargers. And you have to have the right plug if you can charge there. I absolutely don't want to buy a Musk built car. But the but the new Model Y seems to be the best value option here.
 
Look at it this way. Do you research the values of the CEOs of the companies making everything else you buy, and give them a body swerve if they're unacceptable? I don't. My next door neighbour's dad recently bought a Model Y and has a big smile on his face. I mean I get principles and so on, but at some point do you really want to cut off your nose to spite your face? There is genuinely quite a lot to be said for "just get a Tesla".

Especially with your handle.
 
Look at it this way. Do you research the values of the CEOs of the companies making everything else you buy, and give them a body swerve if they're unacceptable? I don't. My next door neighbour's dad recently bought a Model Y and has a big smile on his face. I mean I get principles and so on, but at some point do you really want to cut off your nose to spite your face? There is genuinely quite a lot to be said for "just get a Tesla".

Especially with your handle.
No I don't.

But Musk is no ordinary CEO and his alliance with Trump and his actions with the DOGE put him in an entirely different category. Musk and Trump are ruining the country I swore an oath to defend and protect. The US and its welfare and principles might mean more to me than it does to a Brit. (No offense) LiteBright is a Canadian, Trump has been openly threatening Canada. Probably America's friendliest ally. Trump is President partially because of monstrous amount of money donated by Musk.

And I've been using that handle before the Tesla company existed. It's a salute to the great inventor. (See the picture next to my name. That is Nikola Tesla.)
 
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It's a very personal decision, I was just putting forward an opposing point of view for consideration.

And I do know about the history of your handle. (Tesla was founded in 2003 though - have you used the handle on other boards before that?)
 
It's a very personal decision, I was just putting forward an opposing point of view for consideration.

And I do know about the history of your handle. (Tesla was founded in 2003 though - have you used the handle on other boards before that?)
I hate to date myself like this. But I used it on multiple dial up BBS and AOL when we use to use modems.

I sent Musk an email congratulating him when he became chairman of Tesla. I did this as a networking/prospecting strategy for the tech company I worked for. I would do things like that to new corporate officers of companies I was shocked when he answered my email. Few ever did. But of course, the Tesla company was less than significant at the time. I think this was even before they were selling the roadster. No business came of it though. If I remember correctly they were like second banana to Fisker at that time.
 
For various reasons a Tesla wouldn't suit me anyway. But I don't seem to feel negatively towards the cars, they put a smile on my face regardless. I just don't seem to connect them to Musk in my head for some reason.
 
For various reasons a Tesla wouldn't suit me anyway. But I don't seem to feel negatively towards the cars, they put a smile on my face regardless. I just don't seem to connect them to Musk in my head for some reason.
I like the cars. Very much. I use to particularly want the Model X. I couldn't afford it. But I wanted it. I thought the company was brilliant with creating a charging network. That went a long way in locking in customers. There really wasn't any serious competition because of that. Then the Gigacasting was also brilliant.

I give Musk a lot of credit. But he has also made lots of mistakes. The Boring Company is a joke. So is Hyperloop. The Tesla roof still seems suspect. The Powerwall makes sense because it's little different than building a battery pack for home use. This fits in with the Tesla company's expertise.

I hate the Tesla company's position on right to repair. I don't like how they don't let customers transfer the software embedded with the car. FSD doesn't transfer to a second owner. The range of the vehicle can and does get limited by Tesla through software. So if you buy a used Tesla with an extended range package that's not what you get unless you pay a multi thousand dollar transfer fee for the software to Tesla.
 
But the one thing it showed me that I hadn't considered is that you aren't forced to fully charge on a stop, only charge enough to get you to your destination. Most of the models I checked required a charging stop of 5-10 minutes which isn't as onerous as the 40 mins I was expecting. Just enough time to get a coffee and have a pee. I just need to find a charger close to a 24hr coffee shop. I grew up without indoor plumbing so I can pee anywhere but my wife is a city girl and a little more picky about these things.

So far, the Hyundai Ioniq 5 is at the top of my list. My neighbour has one and absolutely loves it.
You most certainly don't need to 'fully charge', and that 40 mins quoted is usually to 100% charge- the first 60-80% takes about 20-25 min in most cars- that last 20% takes the same time as the first part!!!
Which is why anyone who has done their research knows that on long trips you start with a full overnight charge, run down to 20%, charge to 80% (20-25 min), run down to 20% and repeat...
The Atto's for example can do a 'quick top up' around 7-8 min to get a '100km topup'

Most cars will get at least 350km plus (about 4 hours of driving) on that 20 minute charge, and you can keep that up longer than you can drive...
(the owner of the Atto I mentioned before did a trip from Qld to Victoria doing that, and he had no issues at all doing the entire trip in one go (with two drivers!!!)- a 2000km trip and 21 hours of driving time...)

Do the first 400km hop, then a 20 min charge, drive for another 3 1/2-4 hours, another 20 min charge, drive for another 3 1/2-4 hours, another 20 min stop, and keep repeating until you are exhausted- and the cars still ready to keep doing it...
 

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