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Electric universe theories here.

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Black holes are turbines that are spun up by orbiting gas to generate high voltage electrical power and AGN jets are lossy and glowing, coaxial cables that ultimately heat their surroundings.

Pretty much a great introduction into the paradigm change needed to understand the ELECTRIC UNIVERSE.

Plasma power cables connected to generators in vast electrical curcuits.

Now that’s interesting...

Gas pressure equations in space... that’s a good one. How do you factor that into coaxial plasma power cables threading the Universe? Make any difference to the flow of currents?
 
I mean from the kink in the jet paper...pretty straight forward if they, “jets” are “power cables” ;)

Tusenfem, super duper plasma physicist, possible for a current driven instability to form in a plasma “power” cable?
 
Black holes are turbines that are spun up by orbiting gas to generate high voltage electrical power and AGN jets are lossy and glowing, coaxial cables that ultimately heat their surroundings.
6.1. Towards a Working Model of AGN Jets

Lets discuss?
According to the authors, what you quoted is a "rather different metaphor" for the speculative mechanism they are proposing.

It's a poor metaphor. Coaxial cables are designed to serve as transmission lines for high frequency signals. Some are lossier than others, but the whole point of the design is to minimize losses. If your coaxial cable is glowing, you're doing it wrong.

The entire basis for that metaphor appears to be the authors' speculation that there might be "a disk wind at small radius driven by radiation and magnetic field that forms a sheath around the inner jet that can absorb essentially all of the external photons shortward of the Lyman continuum (Meyer et al. 2018)." (It should be noted that two of the three authors of (Meyer et al. 2018) are two of the three authors of the citing paper.) The authors propose that as one possible mechanism that could "exclude UV and soft X-ray photons" from the inner jet hypothesized for the particular subclass of active galactic nuclei described as "powerful flat spectrum radio quasars (FSRQs)".

I am not a physicist, and I have no quarrel with the physics described in that article. My only quibble is with their use of coaxial cable, mentioned only in that one sentence, as a metaphor. Sol88's infatuation with the poor metaphor in that one sentence is emblematic of electric universe theory—all metaphor, no substance.
 
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According to the authors, what you quoted is a "rather different metaphor" for the speculative mechanism they are proposing.

It's a poor metaphor. Coaxial cables are designed to serve as transmission lines for high frequency signals. Some are lossier than others, but the whole point of the design is to minimize losses. If your coaxial cable is glowing, you're doing it wrong.

The entire basis for that metaphor appears to be the authors' speculation that there might be "a disk wind at small radius driven by radiation and magnetic field that forms a sheath around the inner jet that can absorb essentially all of the external photons shortward of the Lyman continuum (Meyer et al. 2018)." (It should be noted that two of the three authors of (Meyer et al. 2018) are two of the three authors of the citing paper.) The authors propose that as one possible mechanism that could "exclude UV and soft X-ray photons" from the inner jet hypothesized for the particular subclass of active galactic nuclei described as "powerful flat spectrum radio quasars (FSRQs)".

I am not a physicist, and I have no quarrel with the physics described in that article. My only quibble is with their use of coaxial cable, mentioned only in that one sentence, as a metaphor. Sol88's infatuation with the poor metaphor in that one sentence is emblematic of electric universe theory—all metaphor, no substance.

Awesome response, cheers.

Don’t get to hang up on the metaphor’s. Do these coaxial power cables conduct electricity? Could it have something to do with the observed “kink” instability?

Tusenfem already let the cat out of the bag a few post back.

Now, what else could we call these glowing twisted power cables?

Flux tube? Birkeland currents? Force free field aligned current? Take your pick.

Jets are galactic powerlines! Do you still have trouble believing your lying eyes?

Do you even know what a jet is?
 
Do you even know what a jet is?

Ask the person who does not have the foggiest about (plasma) physics and quote-mines sentences that seem to indicate something "electrical".

The trolling strong in this one is.
 
Pretty much a great introduction into the paradigm change needed to understand the ELECTRIC UNIVERSE.

First off, it’s a metaphor, don’t take it so literally. The “turbine” part of the metaphor is spun up by gas. The black hole itself isn’t.

Second, and more importantly, all of this is being developed within the context of standard astrophysics. None of this has anything to do with electric universe nonsense. Standard astrophysics already has more electromagnetism than you comprehend, but it does Work the way you think it does.
 
Second, and more importantly, all of this is being developed within the context of standard astrophysics. None of this has anything to do with electric universe nonsense. Standard astrophysics already has more electromagnetism than you comprehend, but it does Work the way you think it does.

<giggles like a little girl>

Standard astrophysics still struggles with ELECTRICITY in space plasma’s...

Understanding the content, power, electrical current and duty cycles of AGN jets will help quantify their role in galaxy formation and evolution.
towards a working model of jets

Tell me more , I struggle to comprehend, but it does Work the way you think it does.[/QUOTE]

I think it works in the way described by the likes of Alvfen and the likes. Does it work this way?

Can there be an electric current that do indeed
6.1. Towards a Working Model of AGN Jets
Relativistic jets are the conduits that connect supermassive, spinning black holes and their attendant disks to their host galaxies and the universe beyond.

Universe and beyond a big call from a big bangers prospective. Standard garden variety plasma stuff though, so...
 
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The whole "problem" is, of course, what exactly is the "Electric Universe" model?
From what I gather, it is basically:

  • Gravity is weak, so it cannot do anything significant in the universe
  • Everything is done through electricity

There are a few guiding "papers", one of them is the "Juergens model" for powering the Sun as an electrical discharge. (if you are interested, click here if you dare)

Next to that there is the infamous "force free magnetic field aligned currents" by Don Scott (no link necessary as Sol posts it often enough). Apart from re-inventing the wheel, the paper is basically a rehash of basic plasma physics with some incorrect conclusions here and there.

And at last there is the "The Plasma Universe!" by Peratt, which is all-in-all a nice plasma(astro)physics book, with one flawed chapter where he tries to numerically model the development of the universe, creation of galaxies etc. Even Peratt does not believe this chapter anymore, it was an incorrect modeling.

Of course there is Alfvén, who should not be forgotten. The inventor of MHD (i.e. dumming down the math of plasma physics for the mainstream plasma phyiscist for whom it might all be to diffucult) with his (magical) double layers. His fame and glory, in the EU-verse (in the plasma physics universe his achievements are highly regarded -- Nobel Price) is that he did not believe in magnetic reconnection and claimed that it was "exploding double layers", even though there is not practical model that such an exploding DL can actually model the magnetic configuration that is observed at MRX.

So, there is no textbook "Electric Universe for Dummies", there are lots of textbooks on plasma physics, which probably have to function as textbooks for EU. But then, what is the special thing of EU, where do they actually work it all out? Okay, there is the ooooold Juergens paper from 1982/3 in a Velikovskian journal. There are some followers of Peratt as Thornhill, Lerner and Verscharen (though I am not saying that everything Peratt writes is nonsense). Many of the papers are presented in not so important journals.

And for the rest there is Sol quote mining from regular mainstream papers, where he tries to set up strawman arguments, when in a paper a claim appears like "this is surpirsing" (though that more-often appears in press releases). And Sol puts up questions "what is a jet" when he has a paper by Roger Blandford before him, which is a review paper, where everything is explained. But one has to keep in mind that there are metaphors used, in order to make things more graphical. Naturally, these should not be taken literally.

So, that leaves youtube, on which I will not spend my time, to watch 50+ minutes presentations of nonsense.

So, what we (okay maybe only I) are waiting for is a real paper in which the EU-proponents qualitatively and quantitatively explain how their universe works differently from the mainstream universe. Well, who knows, maybe we will get lucky some day.
 
I think it works in the way described by the likes of Alvfen and the likes. Does it work this way?

Alfven never had a working model of AGN jets. What the hell are you even talking about?

In terms of basic plasma physics, what is it you think the mainstream community is getting wrong? How do you know they are getting it wrong? Where are the quantitative errors, and what’s the right answer?

You’ve got no idea. You’re just spouting catchphrases.
 
The whole "problem" is, of course, what exactly is the "Electric Universe" model?
From what I gather, it is basically:

1.Gravity is weak, so it cannot do anything significant in the universe
2. Everything is done through electricity

We could add another


3. Jets can have a major influence on their environments, stimulating and limiting the growth of galaxies.
from a paper by Roger Blandford, which sol88 has before him, which is a review paper, where everything is explained

A jet is an electric current...so,
Everything is done through electricity
in a very simplistic view, I see how you'd get that.
 
So question is

Is the MAJOR influence electromagnetic or gravitic?

You know the ELECTRIC UNIVERSE sorta stuff.

So, AGN play a major role in the evolution of the universe, arguably comparable to that played by stars, and the jets can mediate this interaction directly.
Roger Blandford

Could we add that to 4, tusenfem?

So any way, you were saying?

gravity, does what exactly? Oh, that's right, it keeps the math simple.
 
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Alfven never had a working model of AGN jets. What the hell are you even talking about?

In terms of basic plasma physics, what is it you think the mainstream community is getting wrong? How do you know they are getting it wrong? Where are the quantitative errors, and what’s the right answer?

You’ve got no idea. You’re just spouting catchphrases.

Here's a catchphase

They will also help understand the flow of gas, both inward and outward, and how it relates to accretion as well as reveals some of the impact a powerful jet can have on its environment.
R Blandford

Flow of Gas or plasma?

catchphrase = PLASMA (a gas with some extra properties)
 
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We could add another

No, we cannot. Neither can we "add that to 4".
First you need a consistent base for your "theory of EU", you cannot just willy-nilly add some sentences of which you don't even understand what they mean.

You are supposed to be here THE expert on EU (now that Zeuzz, michealsuede, Micheal Mozina are gone and I think even Lerner and Thornhill were here for a few weeks).

Why can you not point us to actual EU literature, where it is shown that gravity does not work and everything is a z-pinch and currents are driving the power of the stars? Why can all "EU science" only be done by youtube?

Ah well, back to my own paper, that needs finishing too.
 
gravity, does what exactly? Oh, that's right, it keeps the math simple.

How peculiar. You have never done any math. None of the EU people ever do math. And gravity keeps the math simple? Compared to what? No math at all?
 
Plasma is a kind of gas. How have you not figured that out yet? And catch phrases are not models. All you have is catch phrases.

Plasma or gas?

LOFAR antennas unveil giant glow of radio emission surrounding cluster of galaxies

They published their findings Wednesday (Nov. 2) in the journal Science Advances in the article "Magnetic fields and relativistic electrons fill entire galaxy cluster."
further


Between the galaxies, there is rarefied gas of high-energy particles and magnetic fields. Little is known about the origin of this gas and how the particles and magnetic fields influence each other.

Basic stuff, ziggurat, basic stuff.

Plasma or gas? Little is known, yup if you still think a Plasma is a kind of gas :sdl:

:D
 
No, we cannot. Neither can we "add that to 4".
First you need a consistent base for your "theory of EU", you cannot just willy-nilly add some sentences of which you don't even understand what they mean.

You are supposed to be here THE expert on EU (now that Zeuzz, michealsuede, Micheal Mozina are gone and I think even Lerner and Thornhill were here for a few weeks).

Why can you not point us to actual EU literature, where it is shown that gravity does not work and everything is a z-pinch and currents are driving the power of the stars? Why can all "EU science" only be done by youtube?

Ah well, back to my own paper, that needs finishing too.

You are so stubborn you even refuse to discuss a peer reviewed paper?

Remember science?

For instance have a crack at this problem...

3.3. Jet Confinement
A longstanding question about AGN jets is how are they confined and collimated?

Using gas... Mystery, a longstanding one at that????

Using the correct state of matter, PLASMA, flow of current generates a toroidal magnetic field, of course!

Basic plasma stuff here, ziggurat.

Now, knowing that "secret", what could course a kink in plasma conducting a current?

i'll wait...:rolleyes:
 
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