Electric universe theories here.

[MRC_Hans]

Would you still need a potential difference to drive the current, regardless of density?

In a vacuum, not necessarily.

[

I]quazillion square meters?[/I] in a collimated (magnetically confined) plasma?

That was obviously a manner of speech, telling you that density matters, not nominal value.

Such as a flux tube, Birkeland current, force free field aligned current etc etc

State your numbers, then maybe an answerable question will emerge.

Hans

 

[MRC_Hans]

And if there is a current with a potential to drive it, does it not need to flow in a circuit?

In space, not necessarily.

Anyway, what is your point?

Hans

 

[tusenfem]

Would you still need a potential difference to drive the current, regardless of density?

There always needs to be a driver for a current. Most of the time the current is induced by the motion of the magnetic field, seldomly by a charge separation.

quazillion square meters? in a collimated (magnetically confined) plasma?

Such as a flux tube, Birkeland current, force free field aligned current etc etc

Whatever suits your fancy

Not really fair to call ignorance but a will call confabulation on your behalf, as per usual.

Nope, size matters, like Ziggurat said (and I in other words).
If you have 100 l/s from a fire hose, you have great power, if, however, you have 100 l/s flowing through the Mississippi you have a drizzle.

And if there is a current with a potential to drive it, does it not need to flow in a circuit?

What is a circuit?
Are you talking about a circuit representation of plasma physical phenomena?
Or do you want to describe the whole plasma as a circuit, that will be mighty difficult, because there are no wires in a plasma and particles are not guided through wires, but can move around through collissions and other effects.

 

[Sol88]

Right, correct me if im wrong but in relation to the paper ......

The mentioned "kink" in the CURRENT DRIVEN INSTABILITY needs a source to drive the current, that is mostly likely induced by the motion of the magnetic field. Seems a fair call because it is a VERY well know effect of Electromagnetic induction which occurs whenever there is a relative motion between a magnetic field and a coil. What would act as a coil in plasma?

Anyhoo, this induced current that leads to a flow of charged particles is guided not by wires (copper conductor) but can move around through collissions and other effects. Including [URL="https://www.newcastle.edu.au/research/centre/csp/research/birkeland-currents-and-the-aurora/birkeland-currents-from-iridium"]MAGNETIC FLUX TUBES[/URL], FORCE FREE FIELD ALIGNED CURRENTS, CURRENT SHEETS to name just a few.

Now, tusenfem is telling me because to describe the plasma circuits using the above mechanisms instead of using wires is to difficult or is impossible in a space environment we should revert to gas equations?

A circuit is as per the standard definition of an electrical circuit...

What Are Electric Circuits?
Chapter 1 - Basic Concepts Of Electricity

What Is a Circuit?

The answer to this paradox is found in the concept of a circuit: a never-ending looped pathway for charge carriers. If we take a wire, or many wires, joined end-to-end, and loop it around so that it forms a continuous pathway, we have the means to support a uniform flow of charge without having to resort to infinite Sources and Destinations:

Are you talking about a circuit representation of plasma physical phenomena?

YES.

You are able to substitute the wires in the above definition to include your definition of plasma "wires" (charged particles) move around through collissions and other effects.

Plasma circuits in space?

 

[Sol88]

I’d put it a bit differently. Context matters. Scale matters. A current which is large is a terrestrial context can be insignificant on a planetary or galactic scale. Which is how we end up with numbers for Io which look huge without proper context, but turn out to be minuscule in context of the scale of Io.

That’s why quantification matters. But that’s what Sol88 is incapable of doing.

How scalable are plasma phenomena, Ziggurat?

Lets take your statement

A current which is large is a terrestrial context can be insignificant on a planetary or galactic scale.

What happens when a GALACTIC scale (power and density) current is involved in planetary scale plasma interactions. Io and Jupiter for instance.

Would the 1 ton a second of removed material increase?

 

[Ziggurat]

How scalable are plasma phenomena, Ziggurat?

This is nonsensical. In a sense, everything is infinitely scalable, what’s relevant is how things scale.

What happens when a GALACTIC scale (power and density) current is involved in planetary scale plasma interactions. Io and Jupiter for instance.

Would the 1 ton a second of removed material increase?

More nonsense. You are asking about doing two contradictory things at once. Galactic scale plasma densities are low, lower than what we see around Io. There is no way to concentrate galactic scale total power into a volume as small as Io. You are asking what would happen if the impossible happens, and the answer doesn’t matter because it’s impossible.

Stop trying to make Velikovsky a thing. It’s not going to work.

 

[MRC_Hans]

*snip*

You are able to substitute the wires in the above definition to include your definition of plasma "wires" (charged particles) move around through collissions and other effects.

Plasma circuits in space?

Yes, charged particles moving in a magnet field are deflected. That is the reason Earth's magnetic field is important for our survival: It deflects dangerous particle radiation from space. This is well-known science.

What IS YOUR POINT? What has this to do with 'electric universe'?

Hans

 

[tusenfem]

Right, correct me if im wrong but in relation to the paper ......

The mentioned "kink" in the CURRENT DRIVEN INSTABILITY needs a source to drive the current, that is mostly likely induced by the motion of the magnetic field. Seems a fair call because it is a VERY well know effect of Electromagnetic induction which occurs whenever there is a relative motion between a magnetic field and a coil. What would act as a coil in plasma?

Anyhoo, this induced current that leads to a flow of charged particles is guided not by wires (copper conductor) but can move around through collissions and other effects. Including [URL="https://www.newcastle.edu.au/research/centre/csp/research/birkeland-currents-and-the-aurora/birkeland-currents-from-iridium"]MAGNETIC FLUX TUBES[/URL], FORCE FREE FIELD ALIGNED CURRENTS, CURRENT SHEETS to name just a few.

Well, clearly the look of an electrical engineer. Induction is a general thing, needs no coil. It just works with Maxwell's equations, curl(E) and curl(B). A time varying magnetic field creates an electric field.

If the collisions are negligible (most often in space plasmas) and the magnetic field is strong enough, then the magnetic field lines can act as wires and you can use ideal MHD to describe stuff. Then it is easy and Alfvén comes by and you can have an easy circuit representation of it all.

Now, tusenfem is telling me because to describe the plasma circuits using the above mechanisms instead of using wires is to difficult or is impossible in a space environment we should revert to gas equations?

I said that in realistic situations, e.g. at the sun, things become more complicated, because the currents can flow in many directions. These circuit representation is just the long-wavelength limit of the MHD equations. You just gather everything together: sum up all the resistivity in the system that you look at, the ponderomotive forces, the capacitances, the inductions, etc. and you drop that in a equivalent circuit representation, and if you do it correctly you can e.g. calculate the oscillations of prenumerances on the sun.

I did, however, not say "revert to the gas equations", because, what would be the use of that???? You know a plasma is a gas, with some extras. So, you should use the plasma equations.

YES.

Then you have to understand what a circuit representation IS.

You are able to substitute the wires in the above definition to include your definition of plasma "wires" (charged particles) move around through collissions and other effects.

Plasma circuits in space?

plasma "wires" can hardly be "charged particles". Charged particles would describe the currents. If anything, then the magnetic field would play the role of "wires".
And see, if you cannot even get this simple thing correct, then what is the use of discussing plasma instabilities?

 

[Sol88]

From tusenfem. I did, however, not say "revert to the gas equations", because, what would be the use of that???? You know a plasma is a gas, with some extras. So, you should use the plasma equations.

The radio jets produced near the central super-massive black holes are collimated by the magnetic field and their collimation requires external confinement (Tomimatsu 1994; Beskin et al. 1998). For the external confinement, the gas pressure profile plays a vital role and hence, influences the jet acceleration and collimation along with the magnetic field configuration.

from the barbell kinky jet paper.

Gas pressure? Are you able to explain why it vital in a plasma? Especially how gas pressure in the context above, accelerates and colimates a If the collisions are negligible (most often in space plasmas) and the magnetic field is strong enough, then the magnetic field lines can act as wires and you can use ideal MHD to describe stuff. Then it is easy and Alfvén comes by and you can have an easy circuit representation of it all. < those plasma wire things.

 

[Sol88]

Does MHD include plasma instabilities?

Like in a CURRENT DRIVEN INSTABILITY?

Like the one mentioned as a possible cause to a massive kink in a massive jet? Possibly driven via this Induction is a general thing, needs no coil. a long these plasma wires.

You also mentioned I said that in realistic situations, e.g. at the sun, things become more complicated, because the currents can flow in many directions.

Many directions? Are you able to elaborate?

 

[Ziggurat]

You keep treating certain phrases like magic talismans. They are not. Saying the phrase doesn't actually constitute an argument or even a coherent position. If you have a point, actually explain it.

 

[tusenfem]

Gas pressure? Are you able to explain why it vital in a plasma? Especially how gas pressure in the context above, accelerates and colimates a If the collisions are negligible (most often in space plasmas) and the magnetic field is strong enough, then the magnetic field lines can act as wires and you can use ideal MHD to describe stuff. Then it is easy and Alfvén comes by and you can have an easy circuit representation of it all. < those plasma wire things.

Plasma is a gas, so it has a gas pressure, you may not like it, but that is the way it is. In space plasma/gas pressure and magnetic pressure together work at pressure balance.

No idea why you quote my words in something that is probably supposed to be a question.

 

[tusenfem]

Does MHD include plasma instabilities?

Like in a CURRENT DRIVEN INSTABILITY?

Like the one mentioned as a possible cause to a massive kink in a massive jet? Possibly driven via this Induction is a general thing, needs no coil. a long these plasma wires.

You also mentioned I said that in realistic situations, e.g. at the sun, things become more complicated, because the currents can flow in many directions.

Many directions? Are you able to elaborate?

Do you know anything at all about MHD and plasma physics?
Don't bother, we know the answer.

 

[Sol88]

I did, however, not say "revert to the gas equations", because, what would be the use of that???? You know a plasma is a gas, with some extras. So, you should use the plasma equations.

...

Plasma is a gas, so it has a gas pressure, you may not like it, but that is the way it is. In space plasma/gas pressure and magnetic pressure together work at pressure balance.

 

[Sol88]

Do you know anything at all about MHD and plasma physics?
Don't bother, we know the answer.

Is ideal MHD able to model a Current Driven Instability? or do we need gas pressure to accelerate and collimate plasma?

Fairly contradictory, don't ya think?

You can use gas laws in a plasma but can you use plasma laws in a gas?

The radio jets produced near the central super-massive black holes are collimated by the magnetic field and their collimation requires external confinement (Tomimatsu 1994; Beskin et al. 1998). For the external confinement, the gas pressure profile plays a vital role and hence, influences the jet acceleration and collimation along with the magnetic field configuration.

Kinky jet paper

In space plasma/gas pressure and magnetic pressure together work at pressure balance.

plasma/gas? like totally interchangeable?

 

[tusenfem]

Is ideal MHD able to model a Current Driven Instability? or do we need gas pressure to accelerate and collimate plasma?

Fairly contradictory, don't ya think?

Why don't you look in a friggin book? For example the books by Goedbloed (Principles of Magnetohydrodynamics and Advanced Magnetohydrodynamics)

And no, it is not a contradiction, the gas laws (e.g. Pgas = n k_B T) are part of plasma physics. What you will not have with only gas equations is for example Pmag = B²/2 μ₀, the magnetic pressure.

This has been explained to you for years already, but hey, you like trolling, don't you?

You can use gas laws in a plasma but can you use plasma laws in a gas?

why would I use plasma laws in a gas? but hey, you just like to ask stupid questions.

Kinky jet paper

Gas pressure plays a role if you want to have pressure balance in a plasma. If you are really interested, you can have a look at this paper of mine, where I show that there is pressure balance in the solar wind when we observe magnetic holes. The magnetic field decreases, magnetic pressure goes down, but the gas pressure increases, so in all the structures have the same total pressure as the surrounding solar wind.

plasma/gas? like totally interchangeable?

No, of course not, and you know (or should know) better than to ask such stupid questions.

 

[Ziggurat]

Why don't you look in a friggin book?

Because actual textbooks on physics use math, and Sol88 doesn’t do math.

 

[Sol88]

Why don't you look in a friggin book? For example the books by Goedbloed (Principles of Magnetohydrodynamics and Advanced Magnetohydrodynamics)

And no, it is not a contradiction, the gas laws (e.g. Pgas = n k_B T) are part of plasma physics. What you will not have with only gas equations is for example Pmag = B²/2 μ₀, the magnetic pressure.

This has been explained to you for years already, but hey, you like trolling, don't you?



why would I use plasma laws in a gas? but hey, you just like to ask stupid questions.



Gas pressure plays a role if you want to have pressure balance in a plasma. If you are really interested, you can have a look at this paper of mine, where I show that there is pressure balance in the solar wind when we observe magnetic holes. The magnetic field decreases, magnetic pressure goes down, but the gas pressure increases, so in all the structures have the same total pressure as the surrounding solar wind.



No, of course not, and you know (or should know) better than to ask such stupid questions.

Gas pressure?

Statistical study of linear magnetic hole structures near Earth

4 Pressure balance
The decrease in magnetic pressure needs to be balanced by an increase in plasma pressure, which means a density or temperature increase.

Cant find any mention of gas pressure???

Plasma pressure, yes. Magnetic pressure, yes. Gas pressure, NO.

Where in your paper do use gas pressure equations? Are you able to explain how the external gas pressure collimates and accelerates "jets"., as per;

For the external confinement the gas pressure profile plays a vital role, and hence influences the jet acceleration and collimation along with the magnetic field configuration.

You say no to gas when its a plasma but happy to state

Plasma is a gas, so it has a gas pressure, you may not like it, but that is the way it is. In space plasma/gas pressure and magnetic pressure together work at pressure balance.

Plasma is not a gas! A gas in not a plasma.

Do you not know this tusenfem, the super duper space plasma physicist? Different states of matter completely.

Leaves you'se mob in a touch of trouble. regarding understanding gas and plasma.

Beginners stuff really.

 

[Ziggurat]

Plasma is not a gas! A gas in not a plasma.

Squares are not rectangles! Rectangles are not squares!

Except squares are rectangles. They are a subset.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Gas pressure?

*Snipped, silly nitpicking of stuff you don't really understand anyway*

When are you going to explain how this supports the Electric Universe claim?

Science knows about plasma, electromagnetic fields, etc. All you do is quote conventional science, mostly cherry-picked. Where are the revolutionary new insights?

Hans