Electric Universe: has there ever been a scientific research program?

At the same time I wonder if there are EU believers/enthusiasts who have at least sat down, picked up pen and paper, and formed the idea that they'd make a testable prediction. And maybe something like this happens:

OK, here goes, this Wikipedia page seems to have the equations I need. Gimme ten minutes and I'll know the radio-brightness of the Sun-powering Birkeland current. <math math math> Wait, no, I must have something wrong <erase erase erase>. Huh. <rereads wikipedia article on solar radio emissions>. That's way way way too bright, how did I drop a factor of 10^20? <scribble scribble>

"What does that mean? Does it mean the external power source isn't there ... <closes eyes, mumbles brief prayer to Velikovsky> naaaaah. This radio calculation must just be more complicated than I expected, somehow. <tears up paper, closes computer>
 
The reason no formal studies or tests have been done of EU notions (not up to the level of actual theories) is that by the time a qualified person understands what it is they're shaking their heads in bafflement that adults could actually believe it.

I'm just an over educated carpenter, and it took me 5 minutes to go through the process.

RocketBoy1.0 was shown one of their cartoons in school (we no longer attend that one and I think I got her fired over it) and started telling me about it after school. So I looked it up while making afterschool snacks. By the time snacks were done I was interrogating RocketBoy1.0 in bafflement, hoping it was part of a critical thinking component. Nope. It was presented to 4th graders unironically, to be taken at face value as science.

I was furious.
 
Edited by zooterkin: 
<SNIP>
Do not post on behalf of banned members.



Many of us can no longer post comments over at the Thunderbolts Forum since David Talbott went on his banning spree; anyone critical of EU theories will usually end up being censored (comments deleted) and then banned.

I was told by Talbott (paraphrasing): "If you want to criticize EU theories, do it somewhere else -- you are permanently banned from this forum."
 
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Slings and Arrows said:
Edited by zooterkin: 
<SNIP>
Do not post on behalf of banned members.
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OMG! :eye-poppi That's ... um ... amazing! :jaw-dropp

"I'll tell you what Jean, just hand me 10 million dollars and I'll be happy to fix you right up."

"I'd also love to conduct a series of tests related to various types of inelastic scattering that occur in plasma environments."

"I'd also be willing to explore fusion processes in high energy discharges if I had the funds."

"The sky is basically the limit with respect to experimenting with various EU/PC ideas,"

You get the idea.

Amidst all the whining, is there actually a proposal for some novel research, to test EU ideas?

I mean, replicating Birkeland's terrella experiments would sure be fun, but it wouldn't be novel, would it? Just like SAFIRE is not novel (unless you count the 'proprietary' part), right?

In the space of just a few minutes, I think I could come up with half a dozen novel, Birkeland-like, experiments which would test a core EU idea ('electric Sun'). For example, a scale model which replicates the observed density of the interplanetary medium (IPM) between the Sun's corona and ~150 million km out, and which measures particle fluxes at various (simulated) radial distances. Why would this be novel? Because none of Birkeland's experiments attempted, or achieved, a density gradient resembling the observed IPM one (it couldn't, not least because that density gradient was not known until long after he died).

Many of us can no longer post comments over at the Thunderbolts Forum since David Talbott went on his banning spree; anyone critical of EU theories will usually end up being censored and permanently banned.
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If I'm not mistaken, the 'virtual executions' (as MM so delicately puts it) have been going on, over in Thunderdolts, for a long time. In fact, didn't I read that Dave Smith (the Thunderdolts admin) said, explicitly, that anyone saying the EU is pseudoscience will be instantly, and permanently, banned (no matter how well, or otherwise, they make a case that it is)? :eek:

Besides, if David Talbott's 'quantitative testing is a ruse' applies beyond the 'electric comet' idea, the moment you post any such, you'll surely be banned, right? Watch out MM! ;)
 
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ferd burfle said:
The preliminary (first) SAFIRE "paper" provides some clues to their attitude toward EU experiments. Their so-called hypothesis is, boiled down, the Sun is primarily electric in nature. The heart of their apparatus was a spherical anode in a vacuum jar. No points to anyone but a total newbie for guessing why it was sperical. They declared the details of their electrode configuration "proprietary". Like they were going to patent it or something. More like it prevented anyone from easily finding a paper, perhaps many decades old, where someone already explored that electrode geometry. They used the JMP statistics analysis package, which made their results look sciency and also allowed them to "publish" their paper on a user forum on the JMP maker's web site. The payoff at the end of the paper was a comparison of a photo of granules on the Sun's surface with tufts of plasma on the surface of their anode. This was claimed as evidence the Sun is powered by electricity.

All in all, they get a lot of mileage out of stuff like this. Something to point to to counter claims they don't do research that looks good enough to fool the great unwashed. A basis to solicit contributions so they can "scale up" their apparatus to get more supposed evidence. I can't wait until the SAFIRE update comes out from behind their paywall; it should be, uh, interesting. Apologies to the OP if this has been too OT.


ETA: I have a copy of the preliminary report in pdf; PM me if you'd like me to send a copy.
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It's not at all OT; thanks for this post.

I'm quite curious about SAFIRE, particularly why anyone thinks it tests any aspect of 'EU theory' (such a thing does not exist in this universe, not in a scientific form), much less the 'electric Sun' one.

Pretty pictures aside, was there any attempt - at all - to show that the conditions on/near the anode resemble those observed (re the real Sun)? Composition of the gas/plasma, density (and gradient), temperature, particle flows, .... ? I suspect not; I think the whole idea was to produce nothing but pretty pictures, so that EUers like David Talbott (DT) could claim 'qualitative proof' (and rant about any questioning re quantitative matches being 'a ruse').

It goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway, I'd love to be proven wrong.

ben m said:
At the same time I wonder if there are EU believers/enthusiasts who have at least sat down, picked up pen and paper, and formed the idea that they'd make a testable prediction. And maybe something like this happens:
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I'm sure there have been, and some of those questioning Thornhill's, um, 'EU theory of gravity' have done just that. However, any such analyses are actively discouraged, by the high priest DT himself (he of the 'ruse' fame).

@Jrrarglblarg: that's pretty astonishing! :eek: I wonder if there was explicit support for that teacher, from the EU crowd, or if she acted on her own?
 
JeanTate said:
If I'm not mistaken, the 'virtual executions' (as MM so delicately puts it) have been going on, over in Thunderdolts, for a long time. In fact, didn't I read that Dave Smith (the Thunderdolts admin) said, explicitly, that anyone saying the EU is pseudoscience will be instantly, and permanently, banned (no matter how well, or otherwise, they make a case that it is)? :eek:
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Classic cult-like behavior. Either tow the line (group think), or be shown the door. EU is indistinguishable from a cult.
 
Slings and Arrows said:
Classic cult-like behavior. Either tow the line (group think), or be shown the door. EU is indistinguishable from a cult.
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Every time I see "EU" being used on its own, for about half a second I can't help but think "European Union".
 
jonesdave116 said:
Every time I see MM used I think: "Mozina; moron" Can't be helped.
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There is also another MM (Miles Mathis), whose name is frequently mentioned by the Thunderdolts clan. For those who don’t know, Mathis is an artist who claims that pi is actually equal to 4.

I bring this up only to show that some (but not all) of the EU supporters will believe nearly anything they are told, no matter how ridiculous or outlandish, as long as it is being touted as “anti-mainstream”. And it is this small group of naïve and gullible halfwits that Talbott and Thornhill have been regularly fleecing for over a decade now.
 
Slings and Arrows said:
Edited by zooterkin: 
<SNIP>
Do not post on behalf of banned members.
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If you're reading this, MM, thanks for the invitation, but no thanks.

One of my first, if not the first, post I would make in your forum would surely get me instantly, and permanently, banned (and the post deleted). Why? Because I'd be making a polite but firm claim that "the EU" is not pseudoscience, but anti-science.

So, here's my response:
  • I searched your posts here in ISF/JREF, and found none which even hints at a novel test of any aspect of "the EU"
  • if you did, indeed, present such a proposed test, by all means provide a link
  • I'm quite interested in your "a series of tests related to various types of inelastic scattering that occur in plasma environments"; would you mind writing a para or three description of the kind of tests you have thought about?
  • be sure to include things like the density and temperature regimes you'd test (an order or magnitude or three is OK)
  • and please, more meat, less whine.
And in case you're reading this, comingfrom, why don't you join ISF and discuss your ideas with us? Be sure to read the membership agreement carefully; it was - IIRC - a clear violation of this agreement that got MM banned here (i.e. it had - pace MM - nothing whatsoever to do with his advocacy of "the EU").

I note that you, comingfrom, did not propose any novel tests of "the EU", and that you repeated the trope that space physics and plasma astrophysics is "doing research in space for EU theory"; "lie" is how Reality Check would characterize this nonsense.
 
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Slings and Arrows said:
There is also another MM (Miles Mathis), whose name is frequently mentioned by the Thunderdolts clan. For those who don’t know, Mathis is an artist who claims that pi is actually equal to 4.

I bring this up only to show that some (but not all) of the EU supporters will believe nearly anything they are told, no matter how ridiculous or outlandish, as long as it is being touted as “anti-mainstream”. And it is this small group of naïve and gullible halfwits that Talbott and Thornhill have been regularly fleecing for over a decade now.
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Thanks for reminding me of this! :D

I remember reading some of the posts in Thunderdolts on this, for their entertainment value.

But there's another side to it: not only did/do rather a lot of EU groupies swallow MM's, um, artistry hook line and sinker, but (IIRC) not a single one seems to have even thought about testing his published ideas! :jaw-dropp

Of course, that no one did is not at all surprising; it is entirely consistent with the EU being, not pseudoscience*, but anti-science.

*in pseudoscience there is at least the acknowledgment that testing is possible (even if only in principle); as this thread has shown, there is no such evidence for those who espouse "the EU" ...
 
Slings and Arrows said:
There is also another MM (Miles Mathis), whose name is frequently mentioned by the Thunderdolts clan. For those who don’t know, Mathis is an artist who claims that pi is actually equal to 4.

I bring this up only to show that some (but not all) of the EU supporters will believe nearly anything they are told, no matter how ridiculous or outlandish, as long as it is being touted as “anti-mainstream”. And it is this small group of naïve and gullible halfwits that Talbott and Thornhill have been regularly fleecing for over a decade now.
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I believe this is the ONLY requirement to gain credibility with them.
One of their biggest thought leaders, Wal Thornhill, has a theory of gravity that reveals an utter lack of any understanding of the subject of electric forces, the one subject they are supposed to be at least somewhat knowledgeable about. Not only that, his audiences don't seem to know anything about the subject either, as he's been touting this same theory for about 8 years now. It's truly a fascinating case study of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
 
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JeanTate said:
If you're reading this, MM, thanks for the invitation, but no thanks.

One of my first, if not the first, post I would make in your forum would surely get me instantly, and permanently, banned (and the post deleted). Why? Because I'd be making a polite but firm claim that "the EU" is not pseudoscience, but anti-science.
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Over in Thunderdolts, MM replied thusly:
Edited by zooterkin: 
<SNIP>
Do not post on behalf of banned members.


His "neutral location"? christianforums.com :jaw-dropp

Word to the wise, MM: for an International Skeptics forum member, something with that name is the very antithesis of "neutral".

In the spirit of cooperation, may I recommend the CosmoQuest forum as a far better "neutral location"?

So, here's my response:
  • I searched your posts here in ISF/JREF, and found none which even hints at a novel test of any aspect of "the EU"
  • if you did, indeed, present such a proposed test, by all means provide a link
  • I'm quite interested in your "a series of tests related to various types of inelastic scattering that occur in plasma environments"; would you mind writing a para or three description of the kind of tests you have thought about?
  • be sure to include things like the density and temperature regimes you'd test (an order or magnitude or three is OK)
  • and please, more meat, less whine.
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Here's MM's response, re "your posts here in ISF/JREF" which contain novel tests of "the EU" (I am including only the meat, not the whine):


And here's his response re ""a series of tests related to various types of inelastic scattering that occur in plasma environments"; would you mind writing a para or three description of the kind of tests you have thought about?" (I am including only the meat, not the whine):


Would you care to try harder, MM?

I will happily quote anything which is a real response to my two questions; and I will, for now on, ignore anything that's got no meat in it.
 
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If you want to hold a conversation with someone who has been banned from this forum, then you will need to do that elsewhere. Importing their comments from another place and replying to them here is in violation of rule 7.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: zooterkin
 
zooterkin said:
If you want to hold a conversation with someone who has been banned from this forum, then you will need to do that elsewhere. Importing their comments from another place and replying to them here is in violation of rule 7.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: zooterkin
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Thanks for the reminder, zooterkin.

Clearly I need to re-read the rules; apologies for the (unintended) rule violation; I'll try harder in future.
 
jonesdave116 said:
So the invisible Electric Universe pairing up with invisible deities? A match made in heaven!
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Velikovsky is their supreme deity, with Talbott and Thornhill serving as the high priests.

The Apostle Mozina is only a messenger boy; tasked with delivering Velikovsky's sacred writings to the unwashed masses.
 
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Quick update: no proposals for novel tests of "the EU", here or elsewhere.

I've been reading up on Birkeland and his experiments; fascinating stuff! :)

However, I cannot fathom why today's EU acolytes are so enamored with the terrella experiments he did. After all, based on what we know today - about the interplanetary medium/solar wind, corona, etc - the physical conditions (density, temperature, composition, etc) inside his terrellae bear no resemblance to the reality of the inner solar system, do they? This is not to fault Birkeland; nothing was known about the IPM (etc) at the time.

More: I haven't found anything - anything at all! - by EU enthusiasts or anyone else on attempts to show how plasma scaling relationships can get Birkeland's experiments to within even an order of magnitude (or three) of reality.

Ditto SAFIRE (more on this later).

Is it truly just about pretty pictures?
 
JeanTate said:
Is it truly just about pretty pictures?
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Certainly not! It's also about ego. They get more recognition within the (admittedly small) EU community, than they would ever get in the real world of science.
Having a bunch of scientifically illiterate followers is better than having none at all.
 
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