Merged Electric Sun Theory (Split from: CME's, active regions and high energy flares)

[GeeMack]

Not at all. In fact it was Somov who specifically connects the B orientation to the E orientation (including Alfven's ideas) in the last chapter of his book. That's essentially where I got the term "current reconnection" in fact.

I hate to break it to you, but according to Somov, this whole "process" is also an example of "Reconnecting electrical currents", and induced E fields. In fact he describes the filaments/lines in chapter 16 as reconnecting "field aligned currents", or current reconnection. That's why I'm cool with the term 'current reconnection'. IMO that would have been a logical term. Then all the haters would not be so DAMN CONFUSED about the actual physical induction process and the electrical discharge processes that it describes. Oy Vey. What's in a name? At least a year of pain and suffering in just this one thread. Your side refuses to embrace the E orientation, so around and around we go.....

So Somov and Dungey (and pretty much every contemporary solar and plasma physicist) are correct in that magnetic reconnection exists and is a reasonable explanation for the energy release in solar flares and the heating of the corona. It just has a crummy name.

 

[Michael Mozina]

So Somov and Dungey (and pretty much every contemporary solar and plasma physicist) are correct in that magnetic......

They are correct that magnetic field energy is transferred to particle kinetic energy by the inducement of an E field at the X point, followed by an "electrical discharge" in plasma, yes.

Deal with it!

The irony of ironies, is that Maxwell's equations solve for either E or B. You're basically trying to claim they can't be solved for E, even though Alfven himself did that DECADES ago and Dungey himself used the term 'electrical discharge'. This really is the human self defense mechanism of denial at it's absolute finest.

 

[GeeMack]

So Somov and Dungey (and pretty much every contemporary solar and plasma physicist) are correct in that magnetic reconnection exists and is a reasonable explanation for the energy release in solar flares and the heating of the corona.

They are correct [...]

Good. That much we can all agree on. Now if it's just a matter of "magnetic reconnection" being a poorly chosen name for a phenomenon which in all essence amounts to magnetic reconnection, how shall we proceed to get tens of thousands of physicists to accept a different name or come up with a new name for it?

 

[Michael Mozina]

Good. That much we can all agree on. Now if it's just a matter of "magnetic reconnection" being a poorly chosen name for a phenomenon which in all essence amounts to magnetic reconnection, how shall we proceed to get tens of thousands of physicists to accept a different name or come up with a new name for it?

Beats me. All I know is that the term that Dungey selected confused the hell out of you, RC and Clinger and every other EU hater. In fact this whole thread is a testament to the STUPIDITY of the name that Dungey selected since not a single B line actually "disconnects" nor "reconnects", it works by INDUCING an E field at the X point, and an ELECTRICAL DISCHARGE is the actual "flare". Not a single hater "gets it".

 

[GeeMack]

Beats me. All I know is that the term that Dungey selected [...]

Yeah, that Dungey, what a maroon. He was quite the idiot when it came to understanding solar physics.

[...] confused the hell out of you, RC and Clinger and every other EU hater.

The uncivil personalization of the issue would obviously be unnecessary if there was any valid science to the electric Sun conjecture. There's not. And magnetic reconnection seems to be a pretty good name, not really confusing at all since it succinctly describes an effect where magnetic fields are reconnecting.

In fact this whole thread is a testament to the STUPIDITY of the name that Dungey selected since not a single B line actually "disconnects" nor "reconnects", it works by INDUCING an E field at the X point, [...]

Yeah, that Dungey fellow. How stupid he was to come up with that magnetic reconnection nonsense, eh? Maybe some genius can actually put together a cohesive theory that explains how the Sun is a cathode (which doesn't act like a cathode) and how solar flares are like gigantic bolts of lightning (which can't happen in the conductive solar atmosphere, don't look anything like lightning, don't result from the same causes, and don't create the same effect). I wonder when that's going to happen. It's probably that conspiracy to hang on to their funding that keeps all those real scientists from pursuing the "truth". That "truth" would, of course, earn them Nobel prizes and guarantee them unlimited funding. Solar and plasma physicists aren't just a little stupid, they must be very, very stupid.

[...] and an ELECTRICAL DISCHARGE is the actual "flare". Not a single hater "gets it".

Leaving aside the continued incivility and personalization, no, solar flares are essentially made up of accelerated particles, the cause of the acceleration being best understood and described as magnetic reconnection.

 

[Michael Mozina]

Yeah, that Dungey, what a maroon. He was quite the idiot when it came to understanding solar physics.

I don't question HIS understanding of solar physics, I questions yours. "Electrical discharges in plasma? Electrical discharges are impossible in plasma!" Sheesh.

 

[GeeMack]

I don't question [Dungey's] understanding of solar physics, [...]

As I said before, good, we agree that Dungey was correct that magnetic reconnection is a reasonable explanation for the energy release in solar flares and the heating of the Sun's corona.

 

[tusenfem]

I just realised that if you have MAGNET RECONNECTION on an Integrated Circuit then you get MAGNET-IC-RECONNECTION.

 

[Reality Check]

BS. The website says NOTHING about the field LINES reconnecting. It only claims the lines bend and twist.

BS. I know that the website says NOTHING about the field LINES reconnecting.
But I have eyes. I can see field LINES reconnecting in the animations:

Experiments with magnets and our surroundings

They are specifically talking about how the magnetic fields twist and bend.
They are specifically talking about moving magnet around.
and then:

These are the PHYSICAL MAGNETS that are pulled apart.
These are the PHYSICAL MAGNETS that reconnected, N to S.

A person who can see will then look at the animations and note that the magnetic field lines twist and bend and break and reconnect.

A knowledgeable person will look at the animations and note that these magnetic field lines that twist and bend and break and reconnect do this outside of the magnets. They will then know that the lines can be either H or B lines.

 

[Reality Check]

MM: Citing Dungey means that cause of solar flares is magnetic reconnection

Certainly not. Dungey obviously had no problem with electrical discharges in plasma. Peratt has no problem with them.

Two lies in one post .

Dungey (and probably others) called high current densities involved in magnetic reconnection, 'electrical discharges'. This is not plasma in general. This is one specific situation.
P.S. it is one which according to you Alfvén proved MR theory obslolete, i.e. MR can never happen!
This makes your citation of Dungey rather dubious because:

• Dungey says that magnetic reconnection involves 'electrical discharges' but...
• Your hero Alfvén (according to you) says the magnetic reconnection cannot happen.

One of them is wrong.

The big problem that you have been ignoring for about a year is that this happens in magnetic reconnection.
So by citing Dungey, you are agreeing with Dungey (and the scientific consensus) that the cause of solar flares is magnetic reconnection!

Repeating your lie about Peratt does not make it correct: Michael Mozina's fantasy about Anthony Peratt's definition of electrical discharge!:
(including lying about the definition ).

Repeating your ignorance about Dungey and Peratt definitions just make you seem more ignorant:
Dungey's 'electric discharge' = high current density in magnetic reconnection
(no energy release!)
Anthony Peratt's definition of electrical discharge
(no high current density!).
There are different as you have been unable to understand for months

Dungey's and Peratt's definition of discharge are different.
13th January 2011 (10 months and counting)
​

Dungey's definition is "reality". Clinger's experiment is a handwave.

Dungey's definition is real only in the context of magnetic reconnection. No MR - no electrical discharge.
Clinger's experiment is a valid demonstration of MR. It is as described by Somov: MM: Do you realize your mistakes about W.D. Clinger's experiment?

 

[Michael Mozina]

As I said before, good, we agree that Dungey was correct that magnetic reconnection is a reasonable explanation for the energy release in solar flares and the heating of the Sun's corona.

Your agreement must mean that you have *FINALLY* realized your error and that you now agree that electrical discharges can and do occur in plasma and in solar flares. Furthermore you agree that no B field lines actually disconnect or reconnect, correct, it's an INDUCED E field that releases the energy?

 

[Michael Mozina]

BS. I know that the website says NOTHING about the field LINES reconnecting.
But I have eyes. I can see field LINES reconnecting in the animations:

No, you can't. You ASSUMED that. You can see a change of topology in the magnetic field lines due to the fact that they are BENDING and TWISTING (magnetic flux), but they don't disconnect or reconnect. You're ASSUMING that part all on your own! The website says ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the field lines themselves doing any "reconnecting". Whatever reconnecting you "see" in the pretty little pictures in those lines without a beginning or ending is all in your head.

 

[Michael Mozina]

I just realised that if you have MAGNET RECONNECTION on an Integrated Circuit then you get MAGNET-IC-RECONNECTION.

Ya know.....

I really don't "get" you. You personally have the credentials *AND* the knowledge to have explained the INDUCED E field at that x point and the electrical discharges to this crew anytime you chose/choose to do so (still could). Why haven't you FIXED this mess yet? When did you intend to do so?

 

[Reality Check]

MM: cite Dungey's "'electrical discharge' that releases all that stored EM energy"

That's also why you, RC and Clinger are so screwed in terms of embracing 'electrical discharges' in plasma. Dungey describes the release mechanisms as A) an induced E field at the X point, followed by an 'electrical discharge' that releases all that stored EM energy, aka an 'electrical discharge' in Peratt's DEFINITION.

This is where you are so screwed and lying - I at least embrace Dungey's usage of the term in 'electrical discharges' in magnetic reconnection. GeeMack also seems to embrace this term as does Clinger.

And it looks like you have another fantasy:
Michael Mozina

Please cite Dungey's description of "A) ... 'electrical discharge' that releases all that stored EM energy".
​

I (and anyone who can read) can see that
Dungey's 'electric discharge' = high current density in magnetic reconnection
(no energy release!)
Anthony Peratt's definition of electrical discharge
(no high current density!).
are different as you have been unable to understand for months

Dungey's and Peratt's definition of discharge are different.
13th January 2011 (10 months and counting)
​

 

[Reality Check]

No, you can't. You ASSUMED that.

How insane, MM - There is definitely connection:

In the animation two B field loops merge to become a single loop.

Two loops...
View attachment 23920

...become a single loop
View attachment 23921

Isn't that B field connection?

The only ASSUMPTION is that in order for 2 loops to become 1 they have to merge somehow, i.e. the two loops break. This has been described for 50 years now as a breaking of the magnetic field lines.

 

[Michael Mozina]

This is where you are so screwed and lying - I at least embrace Dungey's usage of the term in 'electrical discharges' in magnetic reconnection. GeeMack also seems to embrace this term as does Clinger.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6589072&postcount=14

There is no electrical discharge processes involved in solar filament eruptions and CMEs.

BS. This BS has been going on since page one, probably of the ORIGINAL thread. Either you all admit this statement is false or stay on the denial go round, one or the other.

 

[Reality Check]

In fact this whole thread is a testament to the STUPIDITY of the name that Dungey selected since not a single B line actually "disconnects" nor "reconnects", it works by INDUCING an E field at the X point, and an ELECTRICAL DISCHARGE is the actual "flare"..

In fact whole thread is a testament to the ARROGANCE of one poster who thinks that he is smarter than the thousands of scientists over the last 50 years (e.g. E.N. Parker) who have called this process magnetic reconnection because B lines actually disconnect and reconnect.

And a bit of ignorance: Dungey had little to with the namimg of MR. The name came from Parker (1957).

If you bother to read the sample chapter (the introduction) then you will find that

• Dungey was the first to suggest that "lines of force can be broken and rejoined". According to you this makes him very stupid because thay cannot break and reconenct .
• It was Parker in his 1957 paper who
  

You do know about cause and effect, MM?
The actual cause of a solar flare is the magnetic reconnection. Without the MR there is no high current density. It is this high current density that Dungey called an ELECTRICAL DISCHARGE 60 years ago.

 

[Michael Mozina]

In fact whole thread is a testament to the ARROGANCE of one poster who thinks that he is smarter than the thousands of scientists over the last 50 years.....

BZZT! Dungey understood that an E field was induced at that X point and that electrical discharges occur in flares. I suspect Belz does too by now. I only claim to be smarter than you, GM and Clinger. Actually I don't even claim to be smarter than any of you three, I'm just better educated on the topic of plasma physics because I've personally invested time and money into educating myself on that topic. That time and effort and financial investment puts me WAY ahead of you three (and PS). That's all I claim RC.

 

[Reality Check]

Originally Posted by GeeMack
There is no electrical discharge processes involved in solar filament eruptions and CMEs.

GeeMack was correct: There is no electrical discharge processes involved in solar filament eruptions and CMEs.
Whenever someone just states 'electrical discharge' this is the usual definition of electrical discharge that is impossible in plasma.

You can put the term into a different context though:
However there are high current density (which 60 years ago some authors like Dungey called electrical discharge) processes involved in solar filament eruptions and CMEs.
This is in the context of

1. 60 year old papers (not modern usage which calls high current densities .... high current densities!)
2. Magnetic reconnection causing these 'electrical discharge'.

 

[Michael Mozina]

GeeMack was correct: There is no electrical discharge processes involved in solar filament eruptions and CMEs.

The denial-go-round continues. Round and round and round you go, where you'll stop, nobody knows.