Elections in Spain

[demon]

zilla:
"Spare us your enlightenment. We like our society as it is now...free."

No no, you don't support freedom. Freedom has the universal value of reciprocity attached to it. Your previous justifications for Israeli aparthied leave you on the other side of the fence (so to speak).

The funny thing is, you are great advertising for my position, because you can't or won't deal with a person's position except by replacing it with straw man arguments. Things like -

"So I guess this means you disagree with them? Hey guess what demon? Freedom of speech means that even people who don't have a myopic penchant for support of murdering terrorists get to publish their opinions. You'd be much happier living in Gaza. I hear they don't allow such awful opinions there!"

Where does freedom of speech come into it? I didn`t post on freedom of speech. To say I'd be much happier in Gaza is such an own goal, such a numbskull way of attacking... "my first bullet I'll craftily fire into my own brain, my next aaaarrrgh...".

By the way, you obviously don`t know much about the Pearls. They would cringe to think you were leveraging your position by using their son's memorial website.

From the website -

"The Daniel Pearl Foundation has been formed by Danny's family and friends to continue Danny's mission and to address the root causes of this tragedy, in the spirit, style, and principles that shaped Danny's work and character. These principles include uncompromised objectivity and integrity; insightful and unconventional perspective; tolerance and respect for people of all cultures"

Barely a description of your own miserable outlook.

 

[CapelDodger]

from rikzilla:

I did a research paper in university on the fall of the Berlin wall as a current event. I remember all the concerns voiced by many Europeans that Germany would be dangerous as a reunited state.

Even generations of Brits born long after 1945 have a large proportion incapable of thinking of Germany in any other way. And that includes the editorial staff of such large-circulation newspapers as The Torygraph, The Excess, The Mail and the Bum. Not to mention swathes of the Tory party quote-merchants. The French have an even longer history (three wars, 2-1 down) and anti-Boche feelings in the older generations, but again those views were given more than a representative prominence. This wasn't the view taken by the real decision-makers and chattering classes so I wouldn't read too much into it if I were you. There must have been far more interesting and relevant material to cover.

Thankfully they need not have worried...the allies did a great 50 year long pacification project...maybe too good of a job actually!

It cracked me up during the Kuwait War when the "Watch out for the Germans!" brigade suddenly started accusing them - and the Japanese - of being pacifists Lacking in the military virtues, what? Especially since they were both prevented from sending troops overseas by constitutional provisions that were insisted on by the victorious Allies.

 

[CapelDodger]

from rikzills:

The last time a European country actually did rid itself of an "autocratic ruler" was the French revolution. And the cure (the terror) was as bad as the disease (the monarchy).

A lesson that was well taken in Europe. Autocracy was overcome without recourse to revolution, by political means. The upsurges of 1848 were a reminder that accommodation was necessary. Hitler subverted a democratic system. Even the expulsion of James 2nd - the Glorious Revolution - was relatively blood-free, assuming you don't have Irish relatives. Gradualism worked so well that by 1914 Europe had an enormous wealth of men and treasure to squander in an orgy of self-harm, but at least everybody was doing it to foreigners. Civil wars are terrible for national morale.

 

[CapelDodger]

from rikzills:

Every German who grew up during that period was taught to feel national shame for their acceptance of Hitler. I've known many German civilians and soldiers....most were pacifists...even the soldiers. (not that that's a bad thing, given their history)

I love that "given their history" after the "taught to feel national shame". You seem to have learnt to apply national blame. I don't hold Americans to account for the US trying to keep out of the fight against Hitler, and I don't hold Germans to account over what their ancestors did. Or anybody, for that matter.

from epepke:

Switzerland comes pretty close, although of course that was a long time ago.

The Battle of Granson, one of my favourites. Nobody screwed with the Swiss after that. Of course, the definition of Switzerland has varied wildly over time, and even included Lorraine and the French Jura at times.

 

[CapelDodger]

from demon:

we don't even have a party for people who don't want the Iraq war. What does that say about our democracy?

What does it say about our electorate? That it needs serious revision, that's what. The opposition would, in the normal run of things, be found in the Labour Party and the Liberals (I'm showing my age here) but what we have is New Labour and the Lib Dems. Both had serious misgivings but felt obliged to endorse the enterprise, especially once Our Boys were in the field. I was in favour of war against Iraq, but not for the reasons that were acceptable to the UK and US electorate (clear and present threat, rather than the "why let this kind of thing go on in the world?" that motivates me). Exactly what the reasons for war were are still a mystery, but it wasn't what we were told (now the Poles have come out saying the same, I hear).

Whatever the reasons, the Iraq War is not connected to the War on Terrorism. It has instead been a massive distraction and a cause of serious breaches in what should be an alliance against a dangerous, reactionary foe.

 

[ZeeGerman]

Not really. In the Nietzschean sense, he's more of a "letzte Mensch."

Hey, I almost missed that one...

I seriously doubt that Rik meant the "Übermensch" in a Nietzschean sense. Come to think of it, I doubt that he even knows more about Nietzsche as something along the line "some guy who wrote stuff that I have problems to comprehend..."

Anyway, it would be most interesting to know what you specifically had in mind when you attributed me as Nietzsche's "letzter Mensch". Not that I take a serious offense in that. It's not flattering but I think it's true for a majority of people in all "developed" societies. Just look at (just for example) the typical American suburbian neighborhoods. Full of "letzte Menschen", aren't they?

Zee

 

[rikzilla]

Hey, I almost missed that one...

I seriously doubt that Rik meant the "Übermensch" in a Nietzschean sense. Come to think of it, I doubt that he even knows more about Nietzsche as something along the line "some guy who wrote stuff that I have problems to comprehend..."

Anyway, it would be most interesting to know what you specifically had in mind when you attributed me as Nietzsche's "letzter Mensch". Not that I take a serious offense in that. It's not flattering but I think it's true for a majority of people in all "developed" societies. Just look at (just for example) the typical American suburbian neighborhoods. Full of "letzte Menschen", aren't they?

Zee

I've had some philosophy classes,...but as a skeptic, I've found most existentialist philosophy makes little real sense. So yes, I do have problems with Nietzsche. The guy made no sense to me. I mean, c'mon....an atheist who proclaims "God" to be dead?? So I guess Nietzsche had proof that there was a God to start with, and now he/she/it is dead? What a great example of self contradictory B-S!

Nietzsche was a blowhard with an over-inflated infatuation with himself. But that's just my own bourgeois opinion.

So I have no problem with bowing to your superior knowledge of Nietzsche. You drop his name to impress me with your intellectual superiority,...while at the same time look down from your self constructed ivory tower upon the great unwashed "American suburban" culture. Personally, I think you've merely proved how apt my original assessment was. (at least of you, that is)

Overt snobbery has never been something that I've considered an admirable quality. Perhaps you'd like to "explain" Nietzsche to me? Or, do you suppose we've derailled this thread enough already?

-z

 

[Ziggurat]

Whatever the reasons, the Iraq War is not connected to the War on Terrorism. It has instead been a massive distraction and a cause of serious breaches in what should be an alliance against a dangerous, reactionary foe.

This is incorrect, Iraq is central to the war on terrorism. It is central because we are fighting to win, not fighting to maintain status quo. We want to destroy the threat of Islamofascism completely. Contrary to the delusions of our European "allies", the threats from different terrorist organizations are not separable: the ideology that drives Al Quaeda is the same one that drives MILF, Hamas, Hesbollah, Ansar Al Islam and others - destroying only one organization will not remove the threat. This ideology is an existential threat to western democracy: it cannot be appeased, it cannot be negotiated with. The islamofascists have already dedicated themselves to a life-and-death struggle with us - this was their choice, but it is a choice we cannot ignore. It is ultimately this ideology that must be destroyed. And it cannot be destroyed as long as regimes such as Saddam, his fellow Ba'athists in Syria, and the mullarchy in Iran continue to serve as breeding grounds for this violent and delusional ideology. If you want to defeat terrorism, and not just Al Quaeda, then the entire middle east needs to be reformed. And taking out Saddam is a big first step in that direction. I hear lots of criticism from those opposed to the war that we're not fighting terrorism correctly. But what I never hear from such critics is any actual plan on how to not only fight terrorism, but win. I want to win, what about you?

 

[WildCat]

This is incorrect, Iraq is central to the war on terrorism. It is central because we are fighting to win, not fighting to maintain status quo. We want to destroy the threat of Islamofascism completely. Contrary to the delusions of our European "allies", the threats from different terrorist organizations are not separable: the ideology that drives Al Quaeda is the same one that drives MILF, Hamas, Hesbollah, Ansar Al Islam and others - destroying only one organization will not remove the threat.

I agree w/ most of your post, but I must admit that I don't know what MILF is.

A Google search on it went horribly wrong.

So what is MILF?

 

[epepke]

Anyway, it would be most interesting to know what you specifically had in mind when you attributed me as Nietzsche's "letzter Mensch". Not that I take a serious offense in that. It's not flattering but I think it's true for a majority of people in all "developed" societies. Just look at (just for example) the typical American suburbian neighborhoods. Full of "letzte Menschen", aren't they?

Pretty much, yeah. I didn't intend it particularly as an insult, but I do think that it shows something that underlies a lot the arguments between Europeans and Americans.

 

[epepke]

I've had some philosophy classes,...but as a skeptic, I've found most existentialist philosophy makes little real sense. So yes, I do have problems with Nietzsche. The guy made no sense to me. I mean, c'mon....an atheist who proclaims "God" to be dead?? So I guess Nietzsche had proof that there was a God to start with, and now he/she/it is dead? What a great example of self contradictory B-S!

They must not have taught Nietzsche well, in that case. Because then you would know that "God is dead" was not one of his philosophical statements. He had two of his fictional characters say it.

In any event, Nietzsche was far more of an anthropologist than a philosopher.

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by WildCat
I agree w/ most of your post, but I must admit that I don't know what MILF is.

A Google search on it went horribly wrong.

So what is MILF?

I don’t know what your expectations are, but I was quite satisfied when I did a similar Google search.

Okay, kidding aside, MILF stands for Moro Islamic Liberation Front. Islamic terror in the Philippines.

 

[Wrath of the Swarm]

And the point of those statements was that "God" was no longer viable as an explanation of the world among thinking people. There was once a time where appealing to gods was the only way to explain certain aspects of the world. Nietzsche was making us aware that religion had essentially ceased to be a part of the intellectual world.

 

[WildCat]

I don’t know what your expectations are, but I was quite satisfied when I did a similar Google search.

Okay, kidding aside, MILF stands for Moro Islamic Liberation Front. Islamic terror in the Philippines.

Thanks! They may want to consider a new acronym.

 

[ZeeGerman]

I've had some philosophy classes,...but as a skeptic, I've found most existentialist philosophy makes little real sense. So yes, I do have problems with Nietzsche. The guy made no sense to me. I mean, c'mon....an atheist who proclaims "God" to be dead?? So I guess Nietzsche had proof that there was a God to start with, and now he/she/it is dead? What a great example of self contradictory B-S!

Nietzsche was a blowhard with an over-inflated infatuation with himself. But that's just my own bourgeois opinion.

So I have no problem with bowing to your superior knowledge of Nietzsche. You drop his name to impress me with your intellectual superiority,...while at the same time look down from your self constructed ivory tower upon the great unwashed "American suburban" culture. Personally, I think you've merely proved how apt my original assessment was. (at least of you, that is)

Overt snobbery has never been something that I've considered an admirable quality. Perhaps you'd like to "explain" Nietzsche to me? Or, do you suppose we've derailled this thread enough already?

-z

OK, let me first try to get some of the hostility out of the discussion. I admit that I was somewhat offended by the "neutered Übermensch" which I took along the line of either "castrated" or "tamed Nazi". Then epepke comes in citing Nietzsche and calling me some middleclass bourgois without any drive (my interpretation of Nietzsche's "letzter Mensch", time warped to our century).

Questioning your understanding of Nietzsche (and implying that I regard you as intellectually inferior) was indeed a sign of snobbery.
Since snobbery is something I despise myself, please accept my apology for that.

That said, and to bring the topic back on trail, I'm not at all looking down upon the American suburban culture. I was part of it for almost two years and I loved it very much. What brings me back to my original point. Since I perceived the way of life of the average shmock (that's what I consider myself) as quite similar in the US and Europe, I still believe that, given comparable circumstances as in Spain, the same thing (namely a shift of votes of about 10%) could as well happen in the US.


Zee

 

[rikzilla]

OK, let me first try to get some of the hostility out of the discussion. I admit that I was somewhat offended by the "neutered Übermensch" which I took along the line of either "castrated" or "tamed Nazi". Then epepke comes in citing Nietzsche and calling me some middleclass bourgois without any drive (my interpretation of Nietzsche's "letzter Mensch", time warped to our century).

Questioning your understanding of Nietzsche (and implying that I regard you as intellectually inferior) was indeed a sign of snobbery.
Since snobbery is something I despise myself, please accept my apology for that.

That said, and to bring the topic back on trail, I'm not at all looking down upon the American suburban culture. I was part of it for almost two years and I loved it very much. What brings me back to my original point. Since I perceived the way of life of the average shmock (that's what I consider myself) as quite similar in the US and Europe, I still believe that, given comparable circumstances as in Spain, the same thing (namely a shift of votes of about 10%) could as well happen in the US.


Zee

accepted. hatchet buried.

My personal opinion of you has just taken a major up-tick...not that I'm assuming you care...just stating a fact.

-z

 

[epepke]

OK, let me first try to get some of the hostility out of the discussion.

Let's do.

I admit that I was somewhat offended by the "neutered Übermensch" which I took along the line of either "castrated" or "tamed Nazi".

Which would be inaccurate, anyway, as the Nazis were hardly Übermenschen.

I've tried to translate Zarathustra to English and haven't gotten far, because I can't figure out how to translate Übermensch. The closest I can get to is the imaginings of the 60s freaks and hippies of how people would become after all their consciousnesses were raised, but that has been shown so obviously wrong, that I have to avoid any concepts about it.

Then epepke comes in citing Nietzsche and calling me some middleclass bourgois without any drive (my interpretation of Nietzsche's "letzter Mensch", time warped to our century).

I think you may be taking this more harshly than I intended it. I think that saying that you are middle class is probably correct. But then again, so am I. Or I would be if I had a better income right now. But I was middle class when I was making six figures, and I was middle class when I was living the life of genteel poverty as an academic, and I'm still middle class even though I didn't make enough money last year to pay taxes.

What I was trying to get at was Frank Zappa's "it can't happen here" mentality.

That said, and to bring the topic back on trail, I'm not at all looking down upon the American suburban culture. I was part of it for almost two years and I loved it very much.

Nor am I damning European culture. I've always enjoyed it.

What brings me back to my original point. Since I perceived the way of life of the average shmock (that's what I consider myself) as quite similar in the US and Europe, I still believe that, given comparable circumstances as in Spain, the same thing (namely a shift of votes of about 10%) could as well happen in the US.

So, literally, you consider yourself an average jewel? But seriously, folks...

I'm sure it could. Actually, it sort of did. As I've pointed out, I think every American went nuts for at least six months after 9/11.

But the letzter Mensch or letzte Mensch (I'm never sure what to do with German adjectives when they are combined with English articles) mentality is something that I think has not recently been challenged in most of Europe, with the exception fairly recently of Spain. And the disadvantage to it is that, when something actually blows up, people tend to go nuts.

I think that many thinking Americans (which is probably a minority of Americans) have done some introspection in the wake of 9/11 and have remembered some things, such as the separation of powers and the value of a Constitution without explicit escape clases. This, I think, causes a lot of friction between Americans and Europeans, the thinking varieties of which one would expect to find posting to fora like this one.

 

[CapelDodger]

from Ziggurat:

And it cannot be destroyed as long as regimes such as Saddam, his fellow Ba'athists in Syria, and the mullarchy in Iran ...

Ba'athism and Islamism are diametrically opposed. The Ba'ath ideology grew from the identification of Islam as the problem of the Arab world, not the solution. It is avowedly, vehemently, and often very violently opposed to Islamic influence on public life. It evolved from the late 19thCE thinking of educated Arabs with a realistic view of the developed world and the backwardness of the Arab world. It is essentially secularist. 9Saddam was never seen in a mosque until he realised he had a problem after the Kumait invasion.) It has nothing in common with what you refer to as "Islamofascism" - an infelicitous term in my opinion - by which I take you to mean Islamic fundamentalism. After the Iranian revolution saw Islamists triumph, Ba'athist Iraq launched a major war to remove them. The Syrian regime has levelled entire towns, with their populations in them, to oppose Islamism. See also Egyptian treatment of the Muslim Brotherhood. Just consider the buzz-words of Ba'athism and Arab nationalism generally - Revolutionary, Republican, Socialist, Democratic, Popular. There's no useful purpose served by lumping them in with Iranian Shi'ite fundamentalists as "the same enemy".

Putting Shi'ite fundamentalists in the same enormous bucket as Sunni fundamentalists - which I generally refer to as Wahhabists, possibly infelicitously - is also going to cause problems if you actually base decisions on them. Pakistan is currently the scene of a murderous Sunni-on-Shi'ite terrorism that is intimately linked with the groups that are themselves intimately linked with al-Qaeda. The Iranian regime did not export terrorism to the western world except against their own internal opposition. (Lockerbie was a special case, and I don't mean that dismissively, believe me.) That was despite the clear collusion between the US and Iraq during eight years of war (on the Reaganauts watch, and they seem to have made some distinction between Saddam and Khomeini). Al-Qaeda, on the other hand, launched themselves immediately against the developed world - first against the Soviets and then against the US. Their preliminary, immediate aim, as stated, is the overthrow of the Saudi regime, but they have gone straight to the organ-grinder, not the monkey (as they see it).

So I stick by my contention that the Iraq war and the War on Terrorism are unconnected, except insosfar as the propagandists of both ends of the spectrum try to make it so.

 

[a_unique_person]

from Ziggurat:

Ba'athism and Islamism are diametrically opposed. The Ba'ath ideology grew from the identification of Islam as the problem of the Arab world, not the solution. It is avowedly, vehemently, and often very violently opposed to Islamic influence on public life. It evolved from the late 19thCE thinking of educated Arabs with a realistic view of the developed world and the backwardness of the Arab world. It is essentially secularist.

You are such a spoilsport, can't you just get with the program and bash the Arabs?

 

[hammegk]

You guys continue to discuss the movement of irrelevant pawns (including Israel and The Arabs) in the strategic geopolitical game of control of petroleum supplies.

CNN just mentioned China demand increased an additional 400,000 bbl/day over the last year.