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Elbe Trackway

Cotter said:
Any thoughts on the BFT article Tontar?

Pretty pointed, eh?

Would you be willing to comment on your involvement (or lack thereof) of the Elbe Trackway?

@I Am He - We have a situation here, where a member may be deliberately producing unreliable information. I am simply asking him if he was involved.

I think it should be all of our businesses as to who is or is not truthful or who is or is not out there producing unreliable evidence.

Thx.
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The situation is none of your business IMO, nor is it mine, but if we made it everyone's business who was and wasn't honest, the vast majority of the bigfoot community would fail the test miserably.

Really Cotter, who do you think you are that you have a right to demand anything from anyone?
 
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Couple quick comments.

@Drewbot - newspapers and the like do not need to prove the stories they publish, they just need to have sources. Understand? Now, behind the scenes, they better have 2 or 3 sources that are pretty legit. But they are under no obligation to provide proof in the article itself. And I agree. I thought it was pretty nuts that he named the forum poster as well. But I suppose, it's only right since the researchers aren't hiding behind a username.

@Castro - I'm trying to find the truth here. And NO I WAS NOT INVOLVED IN ANY WAY WITH THE PLANNING OR EXECUTION OF THE ELBE TRACKWAY. Now that wasn't tough to admit now was it?

@Jodie - Hi, been a while. The JRef or Bigfoot community shouldn't be interested in truthfulness and honesty? I don't think that's what you meant, was it? And I totally agree that BOTH sides should be exposed if folks are being dishonest (there is a difference between dishonesty and being mistaken) Additionally, the lunatic fringe hasn't strung up other more notable hoaxers, so why would someone go after Tontar who has made no money, was 'outed' in what, 7 days, and in no way has been accused of anything else? I would think folks like Rick Dyer would have been strung up long ago if said 'lunatic fringe' was out there.

So anyway. Tontar - any thoughts on the article? Care to clear the air at all and to acknowledge or deny your inolvement?

Thx all.
 
Cotter said:
I think it should be all of our businesses as to who is or is not truthful or who is or is not out there producing unreliable evidence.
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I agree.

But why the big hurry to get to the Elbe tracks? You still haven't accepted the unreliability of evidence from elsewhere yet.
 
Cotter said:
Couple quick comments.

@Drewbot - newspapers and the like do not need to prove the stories they publish, they just need to have sources. Understand? Now, behind the scenes, they better have 2 or 3 sources that are pretty legit. But they are under no obligation to provide proof in the article itself. And I agree. I thought it was pretty nuts that he named the forum poster as well. But I suppose, it's only right since the researchers aren't hiding behind a username.

@Castro - I'm trying to find the truth here. And NO I WAS NOT INVOLVED IN ANY WAY WITH THE PLANNING OR EXECUTION OF THE ELBE TRACKWAY. Now that wasn't tough to admit now was it?

@Jodie - Hi, been a while. The JRef or Bigfoot community shouldn't be interested in truthfulness and honesty? I don't think that's what you meant, was it? And I totally agree that BOTH sides should be exposed if folks are being dishonest (there is a difference between dishonesty and being mistaken) Additionally, the lunatic fringe hasn't strung up other more notable hoaxers, so why would someone go after Tontar who has made no money, was 'outed' in what, 7 days, and in no way has been accused of anything else? I would think folks like Rick Dyer would have been strung up long ago if said 'lunatic fringe' was out there.

So anyway. Tontar - any thoughts on the article? Care to clear the air at all and to acknowledge or deny your inolvement?

Thx all.
Click to expand...


I made tracks at Elbe. I admitted it long ago. So what?
 
Cotter said:
Couple quick comments.



@Jodie - Hi, been a while. The JRef or Bigfoot community shouldn't be interested in truthfulness and honesty? I don't think that's what you meant, was it? And I totally agree that BOTH sides should be exposed if folks are being dishonest (there is a difference between dishonesty and being mistaken) Additionally, the lunatic fringe hasn't strung up other more notable hoaxers, so why would someone go after Tontar who has made no money, was 'outed' in what, 7 days, and in no way has been accused of anything else? I would think folks like Rick Dyer would have been strung up long ago if said 'lunatic fringe' was out there.


Thx all.
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If I knew who was or wasn't a member here I'ld post in the biggest font available exactly who is or isn't honest. But who would believe me? It's hearsay, and that is my point. You are incredibly naive if you think whooping ass in the parking lot is the worse thing that someone can do to you.
 
Aren't there more important things for the Bigfoot community to do than persecute Tontar? Like, say, look for Bigfoot? The Elbe Trackway was identified as a fake. That's a good thing. No need to waste any further resources there. Outing Tontar doesn't bring you any closer to proving the existence of the big hairy guy in the woods.
 
Cotter said:
@Castro - I'm trying to find the truth here. And NO I WAS NOT INVOLVED IN ANY WAY WITH THE PLANNING OR EXECUTION OF THE ELBE TRACKWAY. Now that wasn't tough to admit now was it?
...So anyway. Tontar - any thoughts on the article? Care to clear the air at all and to acknowledge or deny your inolvement?

Thx all.
Click to expand...
The truth isn't that hard to find, bigfoot tracks are either fake or misinterpreted and the beast is not real... and yes, sorry to tell you, but you sound a little obsessive about this joke.
 
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Thanks for the comments all.

Do I read correctly that you folks feel that Tontar was involved?

Additionally, I'm not sure how the truth at this point would affect the outcome either way.

I'd like to learn how it was done. A critical first step is to identify the person who did it. Initial evidence suggested Tontar was involved. Hence the questioning.

You see, I can't ask 'how' it was done until I know 'who' did it. One step at a time.

The Elbe Trackway is still fresh. Recollections are best right now. I mean, we don't need to wait 20 years, then start picking apart inconsistencies (sound familiar?).

Jodie, are you aware of any hoaxer that was injured in any way by 'the lunatic fringe'? I'd be interested in reading up on that (or those).
 
You don't have to be a hoaxer to become the target.

First, you need a real Bigfoot track to know what a fake one looks like. In your opinion what tracks are real? How do you know they are real?

What I would like to see from you, or anyone for that matter, is proof that you know Tontar did anything. Put up or shut up.
 
Why do you think people here care if Tontar or Santa Claus made the tracks? Bigfooters have been getting tricked by people IN BIGFOOTRY for decades. If you think we can trust the accuracy of a Bigfooter Investigation into the identity of the hoaxer, you are mistaken.

Skookum Cast, BCM, Freeman, Snowwalker, PGF, all jokes played on Bigfooters.

Even if they did find out who the trackway maker was, why do you think that anyone in the real world cares? 1000 weird people, in the United States are angry?

What if the trackway maker was being paid by the producers of Finding Bigfoot to create the tracks? Is he still a bad person? What if Matt Moneymaker set this all up to prank his buddy Cliff? Maybe the trackway maker isn't ratting out his client.

How about it? We have quite a few bloggers here that have a much greater circulation than the Bigfoot Journal or whatever that rag is called. How about they all blog about the rumored conspiracy, that Finding Bigfoot set all of this up, and Matt Moneymaker paid the trackway maker to do this, to trick his buddy Cliff? Should we run with that?
 
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Cotter said:
Do I read correctly that you folks feel that Tontar was involved?
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Not at all.

What you read is a sense that nobody here knows, or much cares, given a recognition of the fact that the disproportionate adherent over-reaction is both ironic and amusing considering that, without hoaxers, 99% of us would never have become interested in bigfoot.

Whether there's a hairy biped out there isn't clear, but what is clear is that the provenance of the prominent tracks and evidence is such that the whole field of sasquatch tracks is hoaxing. Without hoaxing, you remove most if not all of the data, which makes makes the witch-hunt mentality most chucklesome.
 
I thought we were talking about hoaxers here, so I asked if you knew of any instance where a hoaxer was approached by the lunatic fringe and what happened.

We're talking about the Elbe Trackway here. Allegedly a trackway made by someone that strapped some sort of prosthetic on their feet. I am trying to find out if the evidence pointing toward the person is accurate.

If I had proof Tontar was involved, I wouldn't be asking him to clear things up. But there is evidence that he is involved. Hence I'm asking.

It's a very simple question. One of thousands, if not millions that have been asked on this board. Why would there be ANY reason to not answer it? (That's rhetorical)

Jodie - do YOU feel that Tontar may have been involved?
 
Go for the big game.

"Hey, Mr. Gimlim, do you admit being part og the PGF hoax?"
"Hey, Mr. Meldrum, do you admit selling fake bigfoot print casts?"
 
My opinion is, it is a witch hunt. There is nothing illegal about making imprints in the ground. Proponents are just angry they were almost fooled, and hence the witch hunt. No one forced the guys investigating to go there, or claim anything. They did it all on their own free will.
 
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Drewbot said:
Why do you think people here care if Tontar or Santa Claus made the tracks? Bigfooters have been getting tricked by people IN BIGFOOTRY for decades. If you think we can trust the accuracy of a Bigfooter Investigation into the identity of the hoaxer, you are mistaken.

Skookum Cast, BCM, Freeman, Snowwalker, PGF, all jokes played on Bigfooters.

Even if they did find out who the trackway maker was, why do you think that anyone in the real world cares? 1000 weird people, in the United States are angry?

What if the trackway maker was being paid by the producers of Finding Bigfoot to create the tracks? Is he still a bad person? What if Matt Moneymaker set this all up to prank his buddy Cliff? Maybe the trackway maker isn't ratting out his client.

How about it? We have quite a few bloggers here that have a much greater circulation than the Bigfoot Journal or whatever that rag is called. How about they all blog about the rumored conspiracy, that Finding Bigfoot set all of this up, and Matt Moneymaker paid the trackway maker to do this, to trick his buddy Cliff? Should we run with that?
Click to expand...

ALL of those are excellent questions, but first shouldn't we follow evidence to find out WHO to ask those questions to?
 
Correa Neto said:
Go for the big game.

"Hey, Mr. Gimlim, do you admit being part og the PGF hoax?"
"Hey, Mr. Meldrum, do you admit selling fake bigfoot print casts?"
Click to expand...

Both good questions.

I would be willing to bet they would answer the question though. A striking difference than what I have been experiencing.
 
Cotter said:
Thanks for the comments all.

Do I read correctly that you folks feel that Tontar was involved?

Additionally, I'm not sure how the truth at this point would affect the outcome either way.

I'd like to learn how it was done. A critical first step is to identify the person who did it. Initial evidence suggested Tontar was involved. Hence the questioning.

You see, I can't ask 'how' it was done until I know 'who' did it. One step at a time.

The Elbe Trackway is still fresh. Recollections are best right now. I mean, we don't need to wait 20 years, then start picking apart inconsistencies (sound familiar?).

Jodie, are you aware of any hoaxer that was injured in any way by 'the lunatic fringe'? I'd be interested in reading up on that (or those).
Click to expand...

I don't get "the read" at all that any regular JREF member has given a damn who did the hoax - much less given an opinion on who did it.
Why are you so obsessed with Tontar?

Since it is a given that any rational, critical thinking, unbiased person that reviewed all the evidence would quickly and correctly come to the conclusion that the PGF was hoaxed - why are you not berating the hoaxer named Gimlin?
Why are you not berating all those people who champion Gimlin thereby perpetuating the hoax?

Since only a complete dunderhead or bleever would cling to the belief that the Skookum Elk Ass cast was anything but an elk ass impression - why are you not going after Rick Noll and Derek Randles for foisting that hoax on the Bigfoot community?

Why not go after Justin Smeja? There's another Derek Randles enabled hoax foisted on the Bigfoot Community.

What about Melba Ketchum and her DNA debacle? Surely you must now realize what any rational person who even bothered to look into her claims knew right off the mark - It's a fraud...A hoax...It's dead in the water...It's not pinin'! It's passed on! The DNA Study is no more! It has ceased to be! It's expired and gone to meet its maker!
It's metabolic processes are now history!
(Yes - the best thing I can liken the Melba fiasco to is a Monty Python Sketch)

So why are you not demanding that Melba come clean?

Sorry, but your statement that you only want to know how the hoax was accomplished rings hollow. As a matter of fact - it only serves to embarrass you further in this thread. Your motives are clear. You want vengeance for someone treading on your favorite fantasy.

Pick another game, sport. We don't serve lynch-mobs here.
 
River - I agree, there is nothing illegal about laying tracks.

Do you agree it's a very simple question I've asked?

And furthermore, I'm not angry at all. A bit disappointed, but not angry.

You know, one easy way for the whole BF phenom to wane would be to STOP hoaxing, right? The 'community' would dwindle b/c there would be no evidence (since all evidence is hoaxed). BF would fade away, sightings would stop, etc.....a critical thinking victory, no?

So why is it that the critical thinking 'community' willing to ignore the potential that one of their own is sabotoging their end goal from the inside? There are all sorts of other inferrences that can be made by that behavior as well. Do you disagree with that?

But anyway, I'm getting way off topic. I want to discuss the Elbe Trackway and the BFT indicates that Tontar was the person laying the tracks.

Tontar - were you involved at all with the planning or execution of the Elbe Trackway? Any comments or refutes to the BFT article that claims you were?

Tontar - another question. In the Bigfoot Phenomenon Community, do you feel that honesty and integrity is important when discussing the subject?
 
DozingConsciously said:
They get angry when almost-fooled, but never when actually-fooled.

Weird, isn't it? Completely the wrong way round, even.
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if they were "Actually Fooled", the BFRO would have page dedicated to the legitimacy of the footprints, and there would be a whole subsection of threads about it at BFF, there would be conferences with the investigators, selling casts of the footprints. "Almost Fooled" is bad for business.
 
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