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Merged (edited) General thoughts about Christianity and the bible

Why, then, does slavery still exist in islam?

Because after the Prophet's death, Muslims quickly abandoned the true Islam of the Quran and returned to their old traditions. They also adopted teachings from the book called the Bible under the name of hadiths. For example, practices such as the headscarf, stoning, circumcision, asceticism, and monasticism are nowhere to be found in the Quran. All of these were taken from the semi-pagan book called the Bible and put into practice. Let us remind you: the true Islam is in the Quran.

 
Because after the Prophet's death, Muslims quickly abandoned the true Islam of the Quran and returned to their old traditions. They also adopted teachings from the book called the Bible under the name of hadiths. For example, practices such as the headscarf, stoning, circumcision, asceticism, and monasticism are nowhere to be found in the Quran. All of these were taken from the semi-pagan book called the Bible and put into practice. Let us remind you: the true Islam is in the Quran.

Islam had slavery during the lifetime of Muhammad.
Try again.
 
All of which is, I guess, a roundabout way of saying I agree that those differences can be bridged, and people can get along if they care to. Even if one has doctrinal arguments with Stephen Gould's "non overlapping magisteria," I think that's a good way to operate socially.
I'm interested in the process of reconciliation. Or maybe just "conciliation," if that's a thing. I attended Evensong at an Anglican (formerly Catholic) cathedral just a little over a week ago, largely just to get in (it was "closed"). I notice their website doesn't make any obvious reference to denomination. Its "timeline" skips the 16th century completely.

Mom said not to tell Church-of-Christ Grandma that my brother was confirmed as an Episcopalian. He had behavioral issues, and attending a small church-adjacent private school was a good fit for him. Getting confirmed was largely a social thing, but Grandma would think he was going to burn in hell, which she described in graphic terms. Weirdly, she defended me sleeping with my boyfriend, who she liked. She assumed he was my first and that we were "married in the eyes of the Lord." She also attended my wedding to different person 10 years later. We used Anglican vows. We're long divorced, but I doubt if anyone told her. By then she was living in a care home she thought was a shopping mall ...

If I *had* to pick a Christian denomination, it would be Anglican or Congregationalist or perhaps Disciples of Christ. I dated an Episcopalian priest who was basically an atheist. I asked if that affected his pastoral care. He thought about it and said, "Not really." (He wasn't a "working" priest at the time ... in fact he was a right-to-die advocate, possibly of the hands-on variety). But I can't say the creed or whatever. I can't get past "Christ died for our sins" - it does not parse - for one thing he didn't die, for another how does that even work?
 
Because after the Prophet's death, Muslims quickly abandoned the true Islam of the Quran and returned to their old traditions. They also adopted teachings from the book called the Bible under the name of hadiths. For example, practices such as the headscarf, stoning, circumcision, asceticism, and monasticism are nowhere to be found in the Quran. All of these were taken from the semi-pagan book called the Bible and put into practice. Let us remind you: the true Islam is in the Quran.

If you don't mind me asking ... are you a Submitter?

ETA: If you do mind, of course you don't have to answer. I just ... have some background on that.
 
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So I guess we've recently been exposed to the Bible Camp version of Rumspringa ? Came and went in a flash, with much noise for a bit of time, only to vanish without a sound? Hope Rusty enjoyed his few, manic breaths of fresh air before his compound put him back into the Purity Cellar(tm).
 
Because after the Prophet's death, Muslims quickly abandoned the true Islam of the Quran and returned to their old traditions. They also adopted teachings from the book called the Bible under the name of hadiths. For example, practices such as the headscarf, stoning, circumcision, asceticism, and monasticism are nowhere to be found in the Quran. All of these were taken from the semi-pagan book called the Bible and put into practice. Let us remind you: the true Islam is in the Quran.

It's always somebody else's fault.

Oh and Mohammed kept slave.
 
It's always somebody else's fault.

Oh and Mohammed kept slave.

As you can see, these verses prohibit slavery. After these verses were revealed, no Muslim acquired slaves anymore, and those who already had slaves quickly set them free. They even paid to free the slaves owned by non-Muslims. Islam is founded upon the struggle against slavery.

By the way, many of the things you have been told under the name of history are also false. For example, pagan practices such as stoning, the headscarf, and circumcision did not exist during the Prophet's lifetime. On the contrary, they were fought against. As I said, these are pagan practices originating from the corrupted Bible.

Also, while the corrupted Bible allows slavery—and in some passages even commands it—the Quran prohibits it. If the genuine Torah and the genuine Gospel were available today, we would see that they prohibit slavery as well. However, the Torah and the Gospels that exist today are corrupted. They are human-written books, just like the hadith collections.
 
As you can see, these verses prohibit slavery.
Right....
After these verses were revealed, no Muslim acquired slaves anymore,
Utrue. As has been explained Mohammed kept slaves.
and those who already had slaves quickly set them free.
Lie.
They even paid to free the slaves owned by non-Muslims.
Lie.
Islam is founded upon the struggle against slavery.
Lie.
 
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I'm not sure if Emre_1974tr is actually lying. From his posts he seems to have pretty much invented his own fan-version of Islam and convinced himself that is the truth, and anything or anyone that contradicts his version is either a liar, misinformed or deluded. The fact this his version of Islam is not aligned with everyone else following the religion never seems to fire a neuron.
 
An admittedly cursory bit of research here suggests that the Quran is probably a bit better on the subject of slavery than the Old Testament is, but not by leaps and bounds. Different standards seem to exist between Muslims, potential Muslims, and others. It makes clear that freeing slaves is a good thing to do, including the act of doing so, at least one worthy slave at a time, as a religious gesture that would be pleasing to Allah; and that slaves should be treated well. The general take seems to be that abolition would be a good thing, and manumission of slaves a good thing to do, and advocates time-limited contracts, but it stops well short of actual abolition, and the history of Islamic governments outlawing slavery within their own countries is not that good. I don't think either the Bible or the Quran provides a basis for racial slavery, so Islam might have an edge here owing to the racial diversity of its followers, but I think it has more to do with the diversity of the practitioners than with the texts they interpret and so often corrupt to suit their purposes.

One can always make the case that things have to be done gradually, and that the prevalence of slavery in the pre-Islamic world was such an integral part of social practice that it would have been jarring or disruptive simply to abolish it, but that contention pretty much requires a second-rate god who doesn't have the presence or the power simply to say "now hear this!" and make it stick. The God of the Abrahamic religions just doesn't seem to have it in him.

I will leave speculation on Emre's character to others, though I wonder if among the myriad inventions of the Turks one might number self-delusion.
 
I'm not sure if Emre_1974tr is actually lying. From his posts he seems to have pretty much invented his own fan-version of Islam and convinced himself that is the truth, and anything or anyone that contradicts his version is either a liar, misinformed or deluded. The fact this his version of Islam is not aligned with everyone else following the religion never seems to fire a neuron.
An admittedly cursory bit of research here suggests that the Quran is probably a bit better on the subject of slavery than the Old Testament is, but not by leaps and bounds. Different standards seem to exist between Muslims, potential Muslims, and others. It makes clear that freeing slaves is a good thing to do, including the act of doing so, at least one worthy slave at a time, as a religious gesture that would be pleasing to Allah; and that slaves should be treated well. The general take seems to be that abolition would be a good thing, and manumission of slaves a good thing to do, and advocates time-limited contracts, but it stops well short of actual abolition, and the history of Islamic governments outlawing slavery within their own countries is not that good. I don't think either the Bible or the Quran provides a basis for racial slavery, so Islam might have an edge here owing to the racial diversity of its followers, but I think it has more to do with the diversity of the practitioners than with the texts they interpret and so often corrupt to suit their purposes.

One can always make the case that things have to be done gradually, and that the prevalence of slavery in the pre-Islamic world was such an integral part of social practice that it would have been jarring or disruptive simply to abolish it, but that contention pretty much requires a second-rate god who doesn't have the presence or the power simply to say "now hear this!" and make it stick. The God of the Abrahamic religions just doesn't seem to have it in him.

I will leave speculation on Emre's character to others, though I wonder if among the myriad inventions of the Turks one might number self-delusion.
I asked and didn't get an answer, but some of what Emre_1974tr says suggests alignment with a version of Islam that is at odds with the interpretation of, oh, about a billion other Muslims.

Long story but about 50 years ago a movement began that insisted on following the Quran only, and not other traditions that had sprung up since, or that existed when the Quran was "revealed," or that were the result of legal rulings, anecdotes about Muhammad's life etc.

A major impetus was the reasoning of an Egyptian biochemist who had emigrated to the U.S. He did his own translation. That was fine. He said he discovered that the number "19" was a recurring theme, and cited computer analysis. That was OK. But then he said a certain verse violated the (divine) pattern. It concerned the longstanding declaration of faith ... "There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet."

The clause about Muhammad, he said, was a Satanic corruption. That was not so fine.

Then he came to believe that he himself was God's final messenger, sent to purify Islam of Satanic (or simply manmade) corruptions, and wrote letters to the entire Saudi royal family telling them they were all going to hell (according to a source close to him).

THAT got him murdered.
***​
There are many competing, searchable translations of the Quran online. Does the Quran require women to cover their hair in public? As far as I know, it does not. (It's not a very transparent document.) Out of flawed memory I will cite a verse beseeching women to "cover your ornaments with your headscarves." "Ornaments" meaning boobs, not bangles. One Quran-only sect pegged the meaning as, roughly, "Modestly cover your breasts with a loose blouse." But did the verse presuppose a woman was wearing a headscarf? She very well could have been, under pagan, Jewish or Christian practices, but did the Quran explicitly require it? These were the legalistic sorts of quibbling.

This legalism permeates many religions. And based on varying global fashions, it's easy to see that there are thousands of ways to observe modesty. But this sect wasn't controversial due to quibbles. It trashed one of the most beloved verses in the Quran as a Satanic corruption.

ETA: I don't know where Emre_1974tr is coming from, if he was ever affiliated with the sect I'm talking about. It splintered after the murder, and it was a splinter to begin with. Many religions follow this pattern and it generates a ton of suffering. It's not hard to make the argument, as you (bruto) have, that religion itself is a wrong turn. Does it *ever* serve a purpose beyond indoctrination, domination, control? Maybe? I don't know?
 
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I'm pretty sure I've oversimplified the above to the point of inaccuracy. It might not have been "Code 19" that caused him to toss out the "and Muhammad is his prophet" Things get mind-numbingly complicated very, very quickly. I believe he was well-meaning - and mentally ill.

It may have been just that he thought elevating Muhammad's status in this way violated other guidance to not elevate one prophet over another.

I can't follow his chain of thought - which tbh is possibly a good thing.

I passed a guy on the street the other day who was selling Qurans, supposedly to benefit Palestinian refugees. We got to talking. He said something like, "Look. What does it really boil down to? Don't murder, lie, steal or cheat." Maybe he was luring me in with a show of agreement. I didn't want a Quran. I made a small donation and said, "I hope this really is going to Palestinian refugees ... I'll have to trust you on that."
 
I asked and didn't get an answer, but some of what Emre_1974tr says suggests alignment with a version of Islam that is at odds with the interpretation of, oh, about a billion other Muslims...

ETA: I don't know where Emre_1974tr is coming from
He's coming from here:-
THE HOLY QURAN CORRECTS THE ERRORS IN THE FAKE GOSPELS ON THE MARKET
Yes, the fake Gospels and fake Torahs on the market are human-written hadith books.
Just as Bukhari is a collection of human observations, so too are Mark, Luke, or John. These are books of human observations, much like hadith collections.
Now, let’s give examples of how the only real holy book we have, the Quran, corrects the mistakes of the fake Gospels on the market.

There are about 2 billion Muslims in the world. 87-90% are Sunni, and 10-13% are Shia. Less than 1% are Quranists. That doesn't make Emre_1974tr's position wrong. Nor does it mean he's in any way responsible for the beliefs of other Muslims.

There are about 1.4 billion Catholics in the world, representing ~50% of all Christians. Do we chastise other Christians for not believing all the Catholic dogma? Of course not. For centuries Christians in many countries supported the slave trade, despite 1 Timothy 1:8–11 specifically outlawing it (equating it to other crimes such as murder, kidnapping and perjury). Do we hang that over the heads of Christians today? Of course not. Instead we recognize the role of Christian sects who opposed slavery. We should similarly recognize the fact that all Muslims today reject slavery, a position strongly supported by the Quran.
 
Noah's Ark update.

View attachment 72275
View attachment 72276


This is all I found on the latest findings from Archaeologist on the Noah's Ark on top of the Mountain in Turkey.
Further to @P.J. Denyer linking to a frikkin YEC evisceration of this.
Young Earth Creationists can see through this stupid ◊◊◊◊. Rusty can't...


I never thought the day would come when I'd be linking to a creationist ministry's house magazine because they have a better grasp of reality than a poster here, but strange days....
Here's another video from a genuine biblical scholar who has also tried to look at assessments of the technical capability of the technology (as a non expert who can read).



It's worth a watch.

I was unaware that it had been covered here, so started a separate thread
Or maybe not.

A nice debunking video by a Mormon biblical scholar Dan Mackelan


26:21 "Maybe Dr Bakhtar in the last two years has been able to develop that miraculously but that seems very very implausible to me and so I suggest people chill out and not take seriously what the flat Earther and white supremacist who is posting these claims on the internet has to say and just wait until we have 1, a report with actual data that can be interrogated by experts...."
 
Further to @P.J. Denyer linking to a frikkin YEC evisceration of this.

Here's another video from a genuine biblical scholar who has also tried to look at assessments of the technical capability of the technology (as a non expert who can read).



It's worth a watch.

I was unaware that it had been covered here, so started a separate thread
Ah, Dan Mac. Good stuff.
 
I suppose that you could stuff the Big Boat with enough hay to feed an elephant for 40 days. But that would not leave much room for the penguins . . . . or anyone else.

(Too much idiocy abounds i our World.)

:popcorn6
 

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