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Merged Edgar Cayce

I respect Westphalia's opinion that "they're just isn't anything to Cayce" but I don't agree with it. Further research will surely show humiliating misses, human foibles, and inconsistencies which aren't going to make a SatTV show about him. However, to say there is nothing to Cayce just can't be true--even in light of the very few things I wrote here.

I should have been more precise. The phenomenon of Edgar Cayce - his fame, the public's fascination with his perceived "abilities" - these are very much worthy of study. I only meant to specify that there is nothing to Cayce's predictions, prognostications and medical treatments that would qualify as "paranormal."

(Oh yeah, hey Westphalia: Go Bucks!)

Absolutely!:)
 
When did he try to give up his abilities? Who says he tried to give up his abilities? Far from trying to quit, if you look at Cayce's history, you'll see him incorporating a business in order to cash in on his burgeoning career as a "healer".
The show I watched on the History Channel said that he quit giving readings because people were trying to use him for profit. The show said that these profiteers were somehow causing him migraines, and he quit giving readings to live as a low(er) income photographer.
 
After looking at this thread, it seems that the inclination to believe and justify in believers has a correlary in disbelievers who have the inclination to disbelieve and consequently discredit.

just a thought... :boxedin:

:duck:
 
Unfortunately, I think it's probably too late in the day to prove Cayce's healings.

It happened too long ago, and much of the vaunted evidence of healings is anecdotal at best. A lot of the "evidence" is stuff like favorable news articles about Cayce, which don't prove anything. We get told about expert witnesses, but we don't know anything about the experts. We can't test any of it under controlled conditions, since the guy's dead. We've got no medical records on any of his patients that I've ever seen that can be evaluated with modern medicine--sure, a doctor may have said "There's no hope for this patient!" but generally what we're hearing is a condensed anecdote about how the patient's father said the doctor said there was no hope, but then she got better, go Cayce. We have very little in the way of first sources on any of these cases that I've ever seen, and since everybody involved is dead, it's not seeming real likely that we'll get more data.

So I think that honestly, the absolute most generous thing one could say would be that it's possible Cayce healed some people, but we have no concrete proof of it.

His prophecies are almost all crap. Even Rodney, whom you've probably noticed as a Cayce supporter in these threads, tries to ditch discussion of the prophecies immediately and concentrate on the healings, because the prophecies just don't hold up worth beans.

So my take would be that we can't test the healings, and the prophecies, which we CAN test, failed miserably.

As for his general health advice...well, you saw how ugly the almond thing got. A lot of his advice looks like quackery to me, and the standard of evidence accepted by some Cayce believers on what constitutes a "hit" there is often pretty poor. To use our rehashed example, I wouldn't take "almonds contain substances that help lower the chances of certain kinds of cancer" to mean that "three almonds a day prevents all cancer," is a hit, nor am I willing to allow a Cayce statement to stand as a hit until it is specifically disproven by a study--the burden of proof is on those making the exceptional claim, as always, and Cayce's medical advice isn't considered right until proven wrong. "We don't currently know the causes of X," does not mean "therefore, Cayce is right!" So insomuch as we apply the standards of modern medicine, Cayce's medical advice doesn't currently look like it holds up terribly well.

However, even if some of his advice IS proved accurate, there's no way to prove that comes from psychic powers, either. Particularly not at this late date. One hit would not prove him psychic. A hundred hits wouldn't prove him psychic! There's just not enough data there--the best we could say, even if all his medical claims came through blindingly (which I am not holding my breath for) is that his medical theories were ahead of their time.

With all that said, I'd say simply that if people are ever proved to have psychic healing powers, it's possible the data on Cayce should be re-examined. However, since to date, we have no proof of anyone being a psychic healer, I don't think the available data on Cayce is enough that we should declare him the first known case.
 
What evidence? :confused:

Again, all of Cayce's predictions and medical advice are available for public inspection through the Cayce Foundation. I'd suggest you first inspect these materials, then see the evidence to which we are referring.

There is no corollary between believers of Cayce and his critics. Critics can point to his recorded medical advice and compare it with known science. Critics can point to his prognostications and compare them with the actual events of history. Critics can point to Cayce's actual behavior, then compare it to the manner in which Cayce's supporters would have the public think he acted. Where is the corollary? One is based on hard evidence; the other is based on a willingness to believe in something based on no evidence.

It is errant to think that the passions that motivate both Cayce's critics and his supporters are in any way parallel. They are not.
 
You forgot your "it's true." Without that universally-recognized mark of endorsement I must assume your statement's a falsehood. Please try to be more consistent in the future.

P.S.: For the eighth year in a row, I am the East Coast's #1 Chrysler-Plymouth dealer. It's true.
 
Again, all of Cayce's predictions and medical advice are available for public inspection through the Cayce Foundation. I'd suggest you first inspect these materials, then see the evidence to which we are referring.

There is no corollary between believers of Cayce and his critics. Critics can point to his recorded medical advice and compare it with known science. Critics can point to his prognostications and compare them with the actual events of history. Critics can point to Cayce's actual behavior, then compare it to the manner in which Cayce's supporters would have the public think he acted. Where is the corollary? One is based on hard evidence; the other is based on a willingness to believe in something based on no evidence.

It is errant to think that the passions that motivate both Cayce's critics and his supporters are in any way parallel. They are not.
Here is the protocol as I have experienced it at JREF Forum:

A person makes a claim or a statement of fact or belief. They are then asked to provide evidence or back up the statement with solid reasoning. I have made a statement about Cayce from my limited knowledge of him which can be read in posts #8 and #15 that goes something to the effect of, "I believe there is probably more to this man than a run-of-the mill psychic fraud." UrsulaV and Huntster have also said something to this effect, and I would agree with them.

You and Thai Boxer Ken have stated that Cayce was a fraud and that there is evidence to this fact, and if we saw the evidence then it would prove you to be right. Well at JREF Forum, its not as easy as that. If you make a claim and say you have evidence, then you have to provide it to the best of your ability. If you can't and just say something to the effect of, "You do the leg work to prove me right," then your argument is shallow, and you're showing yourself to be a lazy poster.

Now a thorough examination of ARE's documents just may show Cayce to be a fraud; I am certain people could come to this conclusion, and I might very well do the same. However, at this time I still believe that said examination would show what I have written before that there is probably more going on with Cayce than can be sufficiently dismissed with a lame, one sentence discreditation.

Furthermore, if these documents concerning his readings and life were to easily and sufficiently show him to be a fraud, why keep them? And why give access to them to the general public?
 
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Again, all of Cayce's predictions and medical advice are available for public inspection through the Cayce Foundation. I'd suggest you first inspect these materials, then see the evidence to which we are referring.

There is no corollary between believers of Cayce and his critics. Critics can point to his recorded medical advice and compare it with known science. Critics can point to his prognostications and compare them with the actual events of history. Critics can point to Cayce's actual behavior, then compare it to the manner in which Cayce's supporters would have the public think he acted. Where is the corollary? One is based on hard evidence; the other is based on a willingness to believe in something based on no evidence.

It is errant to think that the passions that motivate both Cayce's critics and his supporters are in any way parallel. They are not.
I probably didn't express this point clearly.

The corollary has nothing to do with Cayce.

This is possibly OP worthy, but since you asked respectfully, I feel you deserve an honest response.

I have been watching the works, deeds, and writings of James Randi for about eight years. He has repeatedly said that there is a need to believe among believers which is not necessarily dependent on the object of belief.

According to Randi, a person who believes needs to believe so badly that in their zeal they will abandon reason and even evidence to satisfy their needs while attempting to maintain the integrity of the objects of their beliefs and the surrounding thought systems at all costs--even at the cost of what some would call the rational. This is an excellent observation, and I would agree with it in many respects.

However, as I have experienced on numerous occassions here at the JREF, there is an equal amount of need in non-believers (notice absence of word skeptics) and an equal amount of zeal to maintain their belief systems/worldviews. And though there is an inclination toward rationalism and science amongst non-believers, still the zeal to maintain their needs to discredit any thing with which they disagree has caused similar flights into the irrational and the prejudicial (and some would say outright out of control hostility).

Example. Look at this thread. There has been more than one case where someone says something to the effect of: "Look at the evidence (which I can't provide), and you'll see (quite quickly and quite prejudicially) I'm right." No dialogue. No "on the other hands." No regard for anything outside their "box" of 'what is and what isn't.' Abject close-mindedness.

To those who appeal to rationality, sound reasoning, science and evidence, the knee-jerk, prejudicial, and vitreolic nature of the posts in a "skeptic's forum" show a similarity to the irrationality of those who must maintain their needs and beliefs at all costs.

This is the corollary: the need and the zeal to maintain the belief/thought systems--at all costs--even the betrayal of their core principles.
 
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You and Thai Boxer Ken have stated that Cayce was a fraud and that there is evidence to this fact, and if we saw the evidence then it would prove you to be right. Well at JREF Forum, its not as easy as that.

Yes, it is. My doubt of his superpowers does not require evidence, although there is much scientific evidence to show that this homeopathic remedies don't work. That shows fraudulent disposition. His claims of prophecy are many and vast, some have had some coincidence with reality, but most are just the rantings of a lunatic. If you think Cayce had superpowers, it's still upon you to give ample evidence of such superpowers. So far, you haven't. So far, it seems only a few woo-woos and fans are the ones that see something "special" there, but have yet to point out the specialness.

And no, this is not stemmed for a needed belief that "people don't have superpowers." It comes from the FACT that such superpowers have never, ever been evident. If you have evidence of Cayce having superpowers, I'll gladly change my mind. I would love to live in a world where people have superpowers.
 
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thaiboxerken[/B];1592466]
Yes, it is. My doubt of his superpowers does not require evidence, although there is much scientific evidence to show that this homeopathic remedies don't work. That shows fraudulent disposition. His claims of prophecy are many and vast, some have had some coincidence with reality, but most are just the rantings of a lunatic. If you think Cayce had superpowers, it's still upon you to give ample evidence of such superpowers. So far, you haven't. So far, it seems only a few woo-woos and fans are the ones that see something "special" there, but have yet to point out the specialness.

And no, this is not stemmed for a needed belief that "people don't have superpowers." It comes from the FACT that such superpowers have never, ever been evident. If you have evidence of Cayce having superpowers, I'll gladly change my mind. I would love to live in a world where people have superpowers.[/QUOTE]
If Cayce believed they worked, then no it doesn't show fraudulent disposition. And from what I have viewed about Cayce, he had some type of success in the "healing" department--however and whatever it truly was.

Rantings of a lunatic? I have not seen any indication that Cayce was inclined toward uncontrolled ravings.

I did not once say I believed otherwise. I have said, and I will say again, that I believe Cayce cannot be easily dismissed with a one sentence discreditation. I am not a follower or believer in Cayce or psychics, but I am not going to disregard this unique person easily.

Superpowers? Define superpowers. Well, let's not go there... You are correct, psychic-type superpowers have never been proven, however there are incredible mental "superpowers" scientifically documented in terms of savants and the like as well as Ramanujan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramanujan

Living in a world where people have superpowers... That's rather thought-provoking. You could go anywhere with this from the silly to the military to the sublime.
 
If Cayce believed they worked, then no it doesn't show fraudulent disposition. And from what I have viewed about Cayce, he had some type of success in the "healing" department--however and whatever it truly was.

At the minimum, it shows he was a quack. Have you really seen any success in the "healing" department? Anything that can be validated with science?

Rantings of a lunatic? I have not seen any indication that Cayce was inclined toward uncontrolled ravings.

Written rantings, he wrote about all kinds of nonsense.

I did not once say I believed otherwise. I have said, and I will say again, that I believe Cayce cannot be easily dismissed with a one sentence discreditation. I am not a follower or believer in Cayce or psychics, but I am not going to disregard this unique person easily.

But WHY don't you think he could be dismissed? There is no evidence to support the beleif that he has superpowers.

You are correct, psychic-type superpowers have never been proven, however there are incredible mental "superpowers" scientifically documented in terms of savants and the like as well as Ramanujan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramanujan

Having extraordinary mathematical insight is hardly a "superpower" and it's irrelevant to this discussion. We're talking about Cayce and your claim that there must've been something "special" about him. Can you tell me what this "specialness" must've been?

Living in a world where people have superpowers... That's rather thought-provoking. You could go anywhere with this from the silly to the military to the sublime.

Still awaiting your evidence that Cayce must've been "special." What you are doing here is what many "I'm not really a woo" woo's have done many times in this forum. They claim that they don't really believe that person X has superpowers, but have yet to see ample evidence that person X doesn't have superpowers. You're basically criticising skeptical people because they dismiss person X as just another human being although person X's superpowers haven't been disproven. This tactic has been used over and over with all of the major "psychics" and "mediums" that are discussed in this forum.

Tell me, do you think Sylvia Brown must have "something to her"? Do you think John Edward must be "special"? What do you think of Uri Geller? What makes Cayce any more of a special case to you than these other douches?
 
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At the minimum, it shows he was a quack. Have you really seen any success in the "healing" department? Anything that can be validated with science?



Written rantings, he wrote about all kinds of nonsense.



But WHY don't you think he could be dismissed? There is no evidence to support the beleif that he has superpowers.



Having extraordinary mathematical insight is hardly a "superpower" and it's irrelevant to this discussion. We're talking about Cayce and your claim that there must've been something "special" about him. Can you tell me what this "specialness" must've been?



Still awaiting your evidence that Cayce must've been "special." What you are doing here is what many "I'm not really a woo" woo's have done many times in this forum. They claim that they don't really believe that person X has superpowers, but have yet to see ample evidence that person X doesn't have superpowers. You're basically criticising skeptical people because they dismiss person X as just another human being although person X's superpowers haven't been disproven. This tactic has been used over and over with all of the major "psychics" and "mediums" that are discussed in this forum.

Tell me, do you think Sylvia Brown must have "something to her"? Do you think John Edward must be "special"? What do you think of Uri Geller? What makes Cayce any more of a special case to you than these other douches?

Besides this, I no longer respond to angry, disrespectful, and demanding people who demand what they cannot give.
 
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Exactly, you can't give any rational reason to believe the Cayce may have had superpowers. Thanks for admitting that. Your assertion that there "must be something special" isn't based on any line of intelligent thinking, but on hopeful woo-sense.

I've noticed that you didn't answer the questions about the other superheroes. Probably because you understand that it will weaken your position about your favorite superhero.
 
UrsulaV and Huntster have also said something to this effect, and I would agree with them.

Uh, for the record, I think there's no good evidence that Cayce was psychic. Just in case that wasn't clear.
 

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